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Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

latimes.com

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Re: Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

#41

Post by PascLeRasc »

hirundo wrote: post #32
hyperbovine wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: why do commenters here frequently seem to bear a chip on their shoulder when it comes to institutions of higher learning?

An attempt at an honest answer: In my case it's related to the continual drumbeat of news stories that seems to show them being transformed from bastions of free inquiry into centers of political indoctrination. It's been reinforced in the last couple of years by a friend who sent his sweet, friendly, apolitical hard working daughter to a liberal arts college, and she returned as a politicized tattooed pierced foul m…

I'm really sorry that your daughter was exposed to critical thinking and new ideas, but understand that not everyone treats college as cubicle job training.

Re: Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

#42

Post by cvoss »

kevmo wrote: post #11

All research done with public money should be publicly available. Full stop.

It seems like NSF is working towards that. NSF-funded publications must be publicly available for free within 12 months after publication. NSF has a repository for this purpose. This regulation went into effect in 2016.

https://www.nsf.gov/pubs/2018/nsf18041/nsf18041.jsp

Re: Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

#43

Post by hyperpape »

jimbob45 wrote: post #26

Can anyone steelman the Elsevier side? I don't want to be caught in the headlights of I have to debate this.

My best attempt: without journals charging fees for access, there is a free rider problem where only a few institutions will support journals. By allowing Elsevier to charge, you force everyone to share in the costs. In a weird sort of way, the fact that universities haven’t yet put Elsevier out of business is evidence for the collective action problem.

I don’t really think it works, and the publication fees model might already be a good enough counter-argument, but it’s my best try.

Re: Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

#44

Post by randall »

traderjane wrote: post #31
betterunix2 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because of the growing student debt problem (which is spilling over into the rest of society and will probably be a factor in the next economic crisis), the tendency of some employers to demand college degrees for jobs that simply do not require them, and the feeling by many hackers who did not go to college that they are not receiving the respect people with their skills deserve (this may be a justified fee…

College degrees might not be required in some contexts but are they predictive of some kind of job success? If so, then employers are just being rational in hiring strategy.

This may have been true when going to college was optional, but now as it's seen as requisite, it's no longer as effective a predictor as it was before, especially in careers where there's a mismatch between personal quality and deference to authority.

Re: Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

#45

Post by apo »

jimbob45 wrote: post #26

Can anyone steelman the Elsevier side? I don't want to be caught in the headlights of I have to debate this.

Elsevier owns copyrighted material, which it licenses to individuals and institutions for a fee. The fee is negotiated on a case-by-case basis, which is no different than any other intellectual property such as movies, music, books, or software.

If a customer is unable or unwilling to pay the prevailing rate, then no access will be granted.

The argument that Elsevier uses unpaid academic labor and therefore should fall under some other system is a red herring. Authors signed over their copyright to Elsevier, and like any other copyright holder Elsevier can license its property toward any legal purpose that advances its business interests.

Re: Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

#46

Post by titanomachy »

xamuel wrote: post #39
jimbob45 wrote: post #26

Can anyone steelman the Elsevier side? I don't want to be caught in the headlights of I have to debate this.

Not exactly steelman, but something you'll want to be aware of if you're going to be debating in this area: The publishers have attempted (and mostly succeeded) to poison the well by equating true open access (free to read, free to publish) with their garbage version of open access (free to read, $3000+ to publish). Once again demonstrating the power of controlling the language. It's going to be a tough battle as lon…

So you're not a fan of PLoS? I always thought their model seemed fair.

Re: Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

#47

Post by lacker »

jimbob45 wrote: post #26

Can anyone steelman the Elsevier side? I don't want to be caught in the headlights of I have to debate this.

The steel man for the Elsevier side is that nobody is forcing scientists to submit content to Elsevier journals or to read Elsevier journals. It’s a product that they create, so they have the right to price it as they see fit.

If Elsevier was really providing no value, why don’t scientists simply submit their work elsewhere? Clearly scientists and universities don’t really care about open access. If it was that important to them, they would just stop submitting content to non-open-access journals. The truth is that scientists care more about prestige than about open access. Elsevier puts a lot of work into making their journals prestigious, and scientists want that.

Re: Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

#49

Post by [deleted] »

corebit wrote: post #25
Causality1 wrote: post #17

Papers produced using any amount of taxpayer money should be required to be publicly available. Not doing so is like stealing a farmer's crops so you can sell him food made from them.

Interesting that you mention farmers crops. Should crops produce with government subsidies also be publicly available for free?

[deleted]
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