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Molten Salt Reactors

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21–30 of 122 posts

Re: Molten Salt Reactors

#21
post #5

The usual quip in the industry is that the remote maintenance is such a complicated robotics problem. that which ever company is able to solve it, is better off converting to a robotics company and just drive Kuka, Fanuc and ABB out of business.

Alternatively, get Tesla and Waymo to work on it.

Re: Molten Salt Reactors

#22
post #7

Or just use that money for solar panels and batteries and not build a combination power plant / doomsday weapon.

Nuclear is a great compliment to photovoltaic. One of the reasons Japan was able to go large on PV (and cause prices to come down for the rest of us) was their huge pumped water infrastructure that had been built for nuclear. One problem with nuclear was all the excess power created at night, so they would pump water uphill at night and then run it down to generate power at the daytime peaks. Of course with PV the ti…

Nuclear is not a great complement to PV, if the PV is cheap. Cheap PV expands until there is no residual baseload demand left. At that point, nuclear power plants cannot maintain high capacity factor and their economics go all to hell.

Re: Molten Salt Reactors

#23
post #7

Or just use that money for solar panels and batteries and not build a combination power plant / doomsday weapon.

MIT studies suggest that deeply decarbonizing is actually cheaper when you do some nuclear alongside your variable renewables + storage [1]. The cost of filling those seasonal solar gaps and 10-day wind gaps gets pretty large without nukes. [1] https://energy.mit.edu/research/future-nuclear-energy-carbon...

Studies that purport to show that nuclear has a place due to inability of renewables to fill those gaps are usually assuming renewables + short term storage cannot fill those gaps. But renewables + short term storage + hydrogen can, and probably more cheaply than a system with nuclear reactors.

Re: Molten Salt Reactors

#24
post #5

The usual quip in the industry is that the remote maintenance is such a complicated robotics problem. that which ever company is able to solve it, is better off converting to a robotics company and just drive Kuka, Fanuc and ABB out of business.

Is it a hard robotics problem or a hard radiation-hardening problem?

Completely robotically maintaining a complex machine sounds like a hard robotics problem to me. Of course it can be designed for machine manipulation but that seems like a pretty complex fusion of robotics and nuclear reactor design. So I think it would be a lot of work.

Re: Molten Salt Reactors

#25

I thought LIFTR was the coolest thing ever. MSRs could have revolutionized power generation... about two decades ago. Solar/Wind/Storage are beating almost everything. Everything they aren't... they will, very soon. It's possible that MSRs could be scaled down and their liquid nature means that the reactor could simply be replaced on a schedule and the entire old reactor "reprocessed". But the investment won't be the…

I agree. I posted detailed calculations arguing this point of view a week ago in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20365309.

Re: Molten Salt Reactors

#26
post #7

Or just use that money for solar panels and batteries and not build a combination power plant / doomsday weapon.

MIT studies suggest that deeply decarbonizing is actually cheaper when you do some nuclear alongside your variable renewables + storage [1]. The cost of filling those seasonal solar gaps and 10-day wind gaps gets pretty large without nukes. [1] https://energy.mit.edu/research/future-nuclear-energy-carbon...

Nuclear is never actually cheap though. In practise it costs a fortune to build, a fortune to run, a fortune to dismantle, and then you have to pay to store the waste forever. Even that assessment is charitably assuming that there are no massively expensive accidents along the way.

Re: Molten Salt Reactors

#27
post #25

I thought LIFTR was the coolest thing ever. MSRs could have revolutionized power generation... about two decades ago. Solar/Wind/Storage are beating almost everything. Everything they aren't... they will, very soon. It's possible that MSRs could be scaled down and their liquid nature means that the reactor could simply be replaced on a schedule and the entire old reactor "reprocessed". But the investment won't be the…

I agree. I posted detailed calculations arguing this point of view a week ago in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20365309 .

I was very disappointed, expecting you to show something about storage costs, but you just handwave that part, even though you go into very specific numbers and extrapolation for the actual pv's. May I suggest this is a major blindspot and probably where it completely falls down?

Re: Molten Salt Reactors

#28
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly heat from inefficient low temperature solid-fuel reactors can't be used directly for many applications. So consider electricity. Cars/planes/kitchen-stoves cant use uranium or nuclear heat!! All 4.5 billion tons can't be extratcted. More we extract, concentration decreases and harder it gets. I keep asking this question: If seawater extraction of metals is practical, why aren't we extracting other costly meta…

Don't confuse solid fuel with traditional light water reactors. The highest temperature reactors are triso fueled helium cooled solid fuel reactors like HTTR with outlet temperatures over 1000C. Also, fast breeder reactors with solid fuel are just as sustainable as any fluid fuel breeder. Molten salt is one of about a dozen advanced reactor techs that has huge potential. Hard part is economics. Hazardous coolant has…

The successor of LWR/HWR should be a fluid-fuel reactor.

Once we setup a pebble/advanced fuel making factory, closing it will takes decades (because people may lose jobs) and the new solid-fuel factory will again pause nuclear innovation for another 100 years. The only way to continuously improve nuclear reactors is to go fluid-fuel. No engineered fuel, so no job loses. Reactor innovation is independent of fuel factory. Nuclear fuel becomes a commodity instead of engineered speciality. Example: MSRE ran U235 and U233 without any modification.

Secondly, solid fuel reactors throw away fuel along with heat exchange surfaces (clad). Fuel also undergoes crystal structure degradation along with other solid structures. Maybe there is enough fuel in the seawater, but there may not be enough places suitable for geological repositories.

Solid-fuel reactors always need excess reactivity reserve. Always needs control rods, and if someone (or a bad actor) pulls all the control rods, reactor gets supercritical. Needs highly skilled people and needs security.

For emergency shutdown of solid-fuel reactor, poison is added to coolant, not fuel. In an emergency, poison is added to the liquid-fuel, permanently destroying the fuel. Emergency can be anything, from a natural disaster to terrorist attack. Fluid-fuel reactors offer unbeatable safety features against anything.

Re: Molten Salt Reactors

#29
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I posted detailed calculations arguing this point of view a week ago in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20365309 .

I was very disappointed, expecting you to show something about storage costs, but you just handwave that part, even though you go into very specific numbers and extrapolation for the actual pv's. May I suggest this is a major blindspot and probably where it completely falls down?

I don't know enough about storage costs to calculate them well, although several recent low-priced PV power-purchase agreements have included storage components, including the one we're talking about here. I look forward to seeing your calculations!

Re: Molten Salt Reactors

#30
The largest reserves of thorium exist in India and China - two of the most energy hungry and polluting economies. One is on the UN Security Council and the other has a unique waiver from the US Congress on proliferation - so fissile material production is not the primary concern.

Both India and China have massive deployments of renewable energy, yet the demand for energy is outstripping projected build-out. LTFR is going to be one of the best answers if it can be made safe.

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