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Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

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291–300 of 432 posts

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

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post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government should enforce energy efficient building standards and tax those who don’t comply.

They could, but then the costs will just be passed down to the tenants (i.e. increased rent).

Even with the cost of insulation upgrades added to the rent, that's still cheaper total.

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#292
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post #84

I’ve always wondered about something, yet have never found anyone discussing it online. So maybe some smart people can help me out: a lot of people install solar on their rooftops. Much of the time this is done with the assumption that it will pay off financially because energy prices are currently at a certain rate and will continue to rise. But here’s my question: If its financially advantageous to install solar on…

Frankly I don't get why people install solar except in consistently sunny places like Hawaii, Arizona and some parts of California. Financially you're pretty much always better off paying utility rates. If you _really_ care about the environment, there's currently no cleaner tech than nuclear, even after you factor in things like nuclear waste and a couple of major disasters. If you only "woke" care about the environ…

Prices have changed in many parts of the world. People now buy solar with the expectation that it will pay for itself in under a decade, and any lifetime beyond that is profit. Financially you are not better off paying utility rates vs. other low risk investments like cash or bonds. Adoption has been driven by economics for a number of years, even now government subsidies are drying up in many (most?) regions.

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#293

Meanwhile in Iowa, Mid American Energy is well on their way to 100% renewal by 2021 with an endless array of wind farms. Their final phase of the project started in 2018 with a $922M investment. Iowa Public Radio toured one of the windmills back in January. https://www.iowapublicradio.org/post/skyscrapers-fields-wind...

I wonder how people would feel about ethanol plants fired by wind farms. The one built near my family home is coal fired and the idea of growing crops to be turned into car fuel is ... less appealing. But if you had electric or ethanol powered tractors growing biomass to ferment and distill into more ethanol with a plant fired with wind, maybe there are some different environmental considerations there. For one it wo…

Ideally the ethanol should be distilled using solar thermal collectors like evacuated tubes or parabolic troughs. There are also semi-permeable membranes that only allows alcohol though (fairly new tech).

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Previous responses about my experience with my 5kW PV generation system in Sunnyvale, CA. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17509166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19163235 Based on your question though, you assume that utilities are somehow optimizing to provide energy at the lowest possible price. This is not true. In the US the utility is granted defacto monopoly status in exchange for its ability to ensu…

In what world is the monopoly better off charging the same rates but with higher internal costs?

One where you have a service versus one where you don't. The establishment of sanctioned public utility monopolies goes back to the 30's at least in the US.

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#295
post #84

I’ve always wondered about something, yet have never found anyone discussing it online. So maybe some smart people can help me out: a lot of people install solar on their rooftops. Much of the time this is done with the assumption that it will pay off financially because energy prices are currently at a certain rate and will continue to rise. But here’s my question: If its financially advantageous to install solar on…

The main issue with utility solar is regulations. Sure it's cheaper on a per watt installation basis but they'd be connecting to the grid with fluctuating generation which causes more expenses with needing to ramp up/down based on the new solar generation.

Batteries aren't cheap enough yet but when they obtain an affordable range, we might be seeing the situation that you're describing because they'd meet current regulation restrictions.

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Previous responses about my experience with my 5kW PV generation system in Sunnyvale, CA. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17509166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19163235 Based on your question though, you assume that utilities are somehow optimizing to provide energy at the lowest possible price. This is not true. In the US the utility is granted defacto monopoly status in exchange for its ability to ensu…

Okay, but other parties than the energy companies can make the investment of rooftop solar. A simple construct could be that the rent you pay for the solar cells is less than your current energy bill, but higher than the point where the company breaks even.

Yes, and that was (is?) the business plan of various solar companies where they put solar on your house for "free", you pay them for your power, and they price you at some going rate that pays their costs. This was made possible by legislation that allowed California to demonopolize public power. What we have learned however is that an undue burden falls on the company that owns the actual transmission lines and cables since those things need maintenance but not all of the power going through them are paying a margin to the person who is tasked with maintaining them.

If you force solar companies to both provide the panels and provide the wires to hook your house up the local substation and maintain those wires, well they can't do that at a competitive rate.

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We don't need jobs in outdated, polluting industries Man, we don't need jobs at all. I want to live in an all-renewable automated world. But I realize that's not realistic in the short term, and it will take decades - perhaps even another century - until that desire is realized. Hence my reservation.

Well we are definitely in agreement about the long term then. Cheers

Of course! I'm sorry my original post made it seem like I was disagreeing with the vision you were advocating. I just had a problem with the means :)

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#298
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Localizing our entire energy dependence has got to have some serious national security benefits It would also cause extreme instability by shooting up unemployment, destroying large corporations that offered valuable careers with good benefits, and exacerbate polarization between those who believe in man made climate change and those who don't. Don't get me wrong - I think energy independence is the way to go - but…

I've got some bad news for you about what's going to happen to the economy when we have 3° C of warming because we didn't do this fast enough.

Automation will screw us all far before climate change does. We need to stop caring about GDP and focus on building a jobless society - one run by cheap renewables and widespread automation - that will allow all of us to have good, healthy, safe lives.

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#299

Why lithium ion batteries — are they much cheaper to make than new gravitational potential (i.e. hydroelectric) storage systems?

Hydro can be extremely disruptive to ecosystems, and you also need a suitable site for it. It's very situational, from what I understand.

I wonder if it would be better to go distributed, pump water into a water tower from a well, or from a municipal source, and then generate electricity and release it back into municipal lines when solar power is not present.

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#300
post #84

I’ve always wondered about something, yet have never found anyone discussing it online. So maybe some smart people can help me out: a lot of people install solar on their rooftops. Much of the time this is done with the assumption that it will pay off financially because energy prices are currently at a certain rate and will continue to rise. But here’s my question: If its financially advantageous to install solar on…

Really good question. The difference is that you pay retail rates for power, but generation costs are better reflected by wholesale rates. The difference between the two is the cost of maintaining the grid. In the past, power utilities have amortised the cost of maintaining the grid into the cost of power, but realistically we need to start charging a lot more for grid connection and a lot less per kWh or the power grid's going to go into a death spiral.
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