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Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

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Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#71

Post by zjaffee »

strooper wrote: post #22

> "Palantir software is instrumental to the operations of ICE, which is planning one of the largest-ever targeted immigration enforcement raids this weekend on thousands of undocumented families. Activists argue raids of this scale would be impossible without software like Palantir." Once and for all, it is the policy makers, not the tech industry, who are responsible for these operations. Tech enables people doing t…

I'm sorry but your response is not based at all in historical fact. A huge part of forcing a governments hand to do the right thing is having corporations and other businesses not work with them (one example is the fall of apartheid in south africa, among other things).

Bottom up direct action is the only real way to fight injustice, law makers move far too slowly to effectively be a barrier to all injustice. Additionally, building a weapon is not simply building a tool (note that I'm not saying weapons aren't ever necessary), and it's foolish to suggest otherwise.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#72

Post by count »

rsweeney21 wrote: post #59

I'm mixed on this. I hired a former CIA analyst a few years ago. Part of his job at the CIA was to contribute to the daily briefings provided to president Obama. I asked him how he felt about the ethics of spying on American citizens. He said I wouldn't believe the number of threats that were prevented on a daily basis because of the tools and data they have access to. He said they don't share the information about w…

Keep in mind that internally lots of stats/etc are posted around things like cyber attacks, where a 'port scan' is counted as 65k different attacks (all of the tcp ports getting a 'malicious' SYN == an attack).

It's the functional equivalent of calling satellite overflights attacks, every time they fly by.

'We are under constant attack!' also helps the internal justification of working for/with agencies like that.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#73

Post by anigbrowl »

m-p-3 wrote: post #34
overthemoon wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't accept this. This is shirking responsibility for what one has brought into the world. Technology has a moral component that can't be ignored in the name of progressive idealism. It's both/and.

Still, if someone crafts a knife and someone uses it to hurt another I'll blame the user, not the crafter.

A better analogy would be someone with a knife asking Palantir to draw up a list of people that can be stabbed with impunity.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#74

Post by gdubs »

_iyig wrote: post #7
chance_state wrote: post #2

What motivates extremely talented tech workers to devote their limited working years to making the world a worse place to live in?

What leads well-off Americans, whose safety and comfort is guaranteed by the constant efforts of law enforcement, to conclude that legal efforts to make law enforcement more efficient would make the world a worse place?

Defending American liberties often result in uncomfortable situations. For instance, defending free speech. To defend free speech, we often find ourselves having to seemingly defend truly awful things (depending on your personal ethics), because the principle of free speech overrides our feelings on a particular bit of speech; hate speech aside.

It’s not like the people against mass surveillance all want their kids to live in unsafe neighborhoods, or be blind to terrorist plots. But everything must be balanced within our set of liberties — and the American way of due process, etc, is purposefully skewed to protect individual rights and liberties.

This is why gun rights is such a hot button issue — some would like to see stricter regulations, because they feel unsafe sending their kids to school in a world of mass shootings. Others feel those restrictions place an undue burden on individual liberties afforded by the constitution.

When it comes to law enforcement, there is a lot of abuse of Power present in the system, which disproportionately affects people of color. Thus, there’s a very valid argument to be made that some of this tech is too dangerous in the hands of law enforcement, despite how much people of all political stripes want their families to be safe.

My aim here is to illuminate the differences in the arguments. I’m not trying to force my (admittedly liberal) point of view on the conversation, because HN isn’t really for politics. My goal here is to show how, despite politics, people can all desire safety for their family, and personal liberties, but have honest disagreements about the best way to achieve that.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#75

Post by zbyte64 »

spinlock wrote: post #11

One piece of data they cannot access is firearm ownership. It is illegal to use a computer to store information about guns in America.

The tool tracks where you have been, your bank account, etc. So while it may not tell what guns were purchased, it can tell if they have visted a shooting range.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#76

Post by nosequel »

sansnomme wrote: post #6
chance_state wrote: post #2

What motivates extremely talented tech workers to devote their limited working years to making the world a worse place to live in?

Is the work-life balance at Palantir better? Read on HN that defence companies have much better pacing.

Most defense contracts require 40-hour work weeks. A company can't ask you to work more than 40 hours typically or be in breach of contract (being unfair to the competition who bid on the contract). So yes, when I worked on DoD contracts I was in at 7am, out at 3:45pm.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#77

Post by avmich »

atemerev wrote: post #14
chance_state wrote: post #2

What motivates extremely talented tech workers to devote their limited working years to making the world a worse place to live in?

Why a worse place? In this particular example, Palantir is used by the cops to run investigations; it is just a more convenient user interface and analytical engine to already existing data sources. I don’t see anything particularly unethical here.

> just a more convenient user interface

This. A difference between a rock in a sling and a nuclear bomb can, hyperbolically, viewed as a better UI for rather similar goal.

Does it explain the things? Do you see how quantitative differences become qualitative?

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#78

Post by zbyte64 »

ummonk wrote: post #10

Would this be all that shocking to the general public? Watch any detective show and the fictional tools there are at least as capable as this real life tool.

One way to explore that question would be to make a game to expose people to these ethical questions. I am thinking like "Papers Please" but recasted as ICE gathering up illegals and their families.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#80

Post by lisper »

rsweeney21 wrote: post #59

I'm mixed on this. I hired a former CIA analyst a few years ago. Part of his job at the CIA was to contribute to the daily briefings provided to president Obama. I asked him how he felt about the ethics of spying on American citizens. He said I wouldn't believe the number of threats that were prevented on a daily basis because of the tools and data they have access to. He said they don't share the information about w…

> it also seemed like something big brother would say to get me to give up freedoms

Or to keep up morale at the agency.

The one indisputable fact is that actual attacks are very rare. So there are only two possibilities:

1. Law enforcement is exceptionally effective at stopping them, or

2. There are very few attempted attacks to begin with.

Here's a data point to help you decide which of these is more likely:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/tsa-fails-tests-latest-undercover-...

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