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Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

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Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#61
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't accept this. This is shirking responsibility for what one has brought into the world. Technology has a moral component that can't be ignored in the name of progressive idealism. It's both/and.

Still, if someone crafts a knife and someone uses it to hurt another I'll blame the user, not the crafter.

You can't have it both ways. Police can easily hold someone as guilty of a crime for being in the same car as someone committing a crime. If you can be charged for that then a creator can be held complicit for any actions done using their software as intended.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#62
post #33

> "Palantir software is instrumental to the operations of ICE, which is planning one of the largest-ever targeted immigration enforcement raids this weekend on thousands of undocumented families. Activists argue raids of this scale would be impossible without software like Palantir." Once and for all, it is the policy makers, not the tech industry, who are responsible for these operations. Tech enables people doing t…

"I am innocent of this man's blood; see you to it."

Since not everyone will get the reference: according to the Christian Bible's New Testament, this is what Pontius Pilate (the Roman administrator who sentenced Jesus Christ to death) said when he reluctantly allowed the angry mob to decide JC's fate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#63
post #60
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American citizen who is happy to see the law enforced. I don't live in Atherton or Palo Alto. There were two Central American gang-related shootings near my family's home last week; there were two MS-13 murders in the broader area earlier this year. I grew up here, and it didn't used to be like this. I want to see those who come here illegally, or who have been denied refugee status as the result of due proces…

The problem is most people that want undocumented immigrants deported don't actually want them deported. They just want them to be an underclass available for cheap labor and keep their mouths shut. Undocumented workers are essential to the economy and the same people that hate them hire them. If you want rule of law, provide work permits and a path to citizenship. Immigrants of all variety aren't going away. We need…

They are essential to the economy because American employers can pay below-market wages for back-breaking labor. I'd prefer to make such practices illegal, rather than continually subjecting undocumented immigrants to awful working conditions with no healthcare or legal recourse in cases of abuse.

If a concerted effort was made to improve the lives of such workers, I think you'd be surprised how quickly Americans would be willing to do those jobs.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#64
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's making it worse until something bad happens to someone you value. If Obama's daughters (or Trump's if you are on the other side) were killed in some horrific racist incident, wouldn't you approve the usage of such software if it was the only hope of getting the perpetrator? Or would you say "as much as I am saddened, I cannot approve such massive invasion of privacy".

Are you alleging that Palantir enables or encourages "horrific racist incidents"? Could you be more specific? EDIT: I see what you mean. I had mistaken the meaning of OP. Please ignore this comment.

They're saying the opposite. They're saying that Palantir is helping catch violent racists after they commit crimes.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#65

> "Palantir software is instrumental to the operations of ICE, which is planning one of the largest-ever targeted immigration enforcement raids this weekend on thousands of undocumented families. Activists argue raids of this scale would be impossible without software like Palantir." Once and for all, it is the policy makers, not the tech industry, who are responsible for these operations. Tech enables people doing t…

Once and for all, it is the policy makers, not the tech industry, who are responsible for these operations.

Prefacing your opinion with 'once and for all' is not much better than saying 'mine is the only valid opinion' and doesn't make for a good discussion.

Policy makers certainly create the demand for such commercial services, but it is a choice to supply that demand or not, and those who find such demands morally questionable have the capability to frustrate them by refusing to participate or obstructing the supply.

Individuals can of course abdicate the moral decision-making if it makes them uncomfortable, but acting without regard to the good or ill of the outcome is an implicit endorsement of it. If people later decide that certain outcomes are a moral ill, indifferent participants may find themselves considered culpable.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#66
post #49

> "Palantir software is instrumental to the operations of ICE, which is planning one of the largest-ever targeted immigration enforcement raids this weekend on thousands of undocumented families. Activists argue raids of this scale would be impossible without software like Palantir." Once and for all, it is the policy makers, not the tech industry, who are responsible for these operations. Tech enables people doing t…

Let us remember that Peter Thiel founded Palantir to give himself backdoor influence on policy.

Peter Thiel would make an excellent Bond villain. You can feel empathy for him for being genuinely wronged and at the same time be disgusted by how he's harmed others in the pursuit of his private justice. He should never be underestimated and just when you think you've found a weakness he can expose it as a secret strength. If he weren't using his tremendous skills for so much ill in the world he'd be extremely admirable and hard not to cite as a role model.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#67

> "Palantir software is instrumental to the operations of ICE, which is planning one of the largest-ever targeted immigration enforcement raids this weekend on thousands of undocumented families. Activists argue raids of this scale would be impossible without software like Palantir." Once and for all, it is the policy makers, not the tech industry, who are responsible for these operations. Tech enables people doing t…

> Once and for all, it is the policy makers, not the tech industry This is what people working on horrible things say to themselves to justify collecting a (giant) paycheck. Many parties are at fault, whether they write the laws or the software.

This is the tech equivalent of saying they were just following orders.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#68
post #39

> "Palantir software is instrumental to the operations of ICE, which is planning one of the largest-ever targeted immigration enforcement raids this weekend on thousands of undocumented families. Activists argue raids of this scale would be impossible without software like Palantir." Once and for all, it is the policy makers, not the tech industry, who are responsible for these operations. Tech enables people doing t…

I'm an American citizen who is happy to see the law enforced. I don't live in Atherton or Palo Alto. There were two Central American gang-related shootings near my family's home last week; there were two MS-13 murders in the broader area earlier this year. I grew up here, and it didn't used to be like this. I want to see those who come here illegally, or who have been denied refugee status as the result of due proces…

The fact is that human rights violations and child abuse are happening now. Here is one recent example from DHS' own inspector-general: https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2019-07/O...

Take a look at the pictures and pretend it's your family members. Still proud?

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#69
post #39

> "Palantir software is instrumental to the operations of ICE, which is planning one of the largest-ever targeted immigration enforcement raids this weekend on thousands of undocumented families. Activists argue raids of this scale would be impossible without software like Palantir." Once and for all, it is the policy makers, not the tech industry, who are responsible for these operations. Tech enables people doing t…

I'm an American citizen who is happy to see the law enforced. I don't live in Atherton or Palo Alto. There were two Central American gang-related shootings near my family's home last week; there were two MS-13 murders in the broader area earlier this year. I grew up here, and it didn't used to be like this. I want to see those who come here illegally, or who have been denied refugee status as the result of due proces…

I believe a [citation needed] is required for the claim that US immigration policy is "internationally conventional".

There is of course enormous variance in how countries handle immigration, but the ethical and conventional policy could be summarized as:

1. Border enforcement. Ie, try to prevent people from entering illegally

2. Tolerance for those who are illegally present

(2) Means that a person who emigrated illegally should be able to exist outside the shadows. That is, they should be able to get ID, work, drive, etc while their immigration case is decided, often indefinitely. As well, parents of children born-in country can apply for residence in the EU, for example.

This obviously makes an enormous amount of practical sense. All of the "problems" with illegal immigration ('job stealing', not paying taxes, etc) are exacerbated when people cannot legally work. Distinguishing between MS-13 members and hotel room cleaners is harder when the latter cannot integrate.

Lastly, there is an enormous moral cost to the "crackdown" immigration policy enacted by the US Government. Undocumented immigrants live in constant fear, poverty and exploitation. This is a real ethical and moral cost for an act which is, at the end of the day, pretty benign.

The US is a nation of laws, but the punishment (Can't complain when you're exploited! Can't sign a lease! Get deported to a country you left when you were two weeks old!) for illegal immigration is completely disproportionate to the crime.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#70
post #39

> "Palantir software is instrumental to the operations of ICE, which is planning one of the largest-ever targeted immigration enforcement raids this weekend on thousands of undocumented families. Activists argue raids of this scale would be impossible without software like Palantir." Once and for all, it is the policy makers, not the tech industry, who are responsible for these operations. Tech enables people doing t…

I'm an American citizen who is happy to see the law enforced. I don't live in Atherton or Palo Alto. There were two Central American gang-related shootings near my family's home last week; there were two MS-13 murders in the broader area earlier this year. I grew up here, and it didn't used to be like this. I want to see those who come here illegally, or who have been denied refugee status as the result of due proces…

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