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Google Engineer bails out student in jail

neil.fraser.name

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Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#191

Post by ugh »

bugsy wrote: post #185
ugh wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is slave labor. The US constitution bans slavery except for prisoners. Here is the text of the Thirteenth Amendment, Section 1: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” – edit: To add a bit more substance, here is an article about the recent Georgi…

The Constitution prohibits slavery except as a punishment for crime . The punishment for each crime is set by a judge during sentencing after a guilty conviction and it is very specific. Sentencing a prisoner to punishment in the form of prison for 10 years is not the same as sentencing to punishment of slave labor for 10 years. The two are completely different. If a judge has not sentenced the prisoner to slave labo…

The article I linked to claims that the language of the amendment bars legal challenges to unpaid or minimally paid prison labor. (It also mentions the book you mentioned.) The Thirteenth Amendment which is ostensibly about slavery would seem to ban prison labor outside of prisons. That’s the connection I wanted to make. Is there something to that?

I know that I’m casting a wide net. Prison labor is certainly not the same as slavery as it existed in the US decades ago. I do think, though, that I’m at least somewhat justified in calling prison labor slavery. Prisoners are forced to do it and they are not paid or paid very little. (This is not necessarily a moral judgment. Just because something meets some definition doesn’t mean it’s wrong.)

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#192

Post by bugsy »

Natsu wrote: post #151
pyre wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gays in the military have nothing to do with Manning's case (unless he is openly gay, then I digress).

Accounts I've read indicate that Manning was in fact gay and that DADT was part of his motive. I do not know if it's true or not, though, as I have no way of corroborating that information.

My understanding is that everyone knew Manning was gay. I doubt that has much to do with the case though. Their primary evidence is that someone claiming to be Manning confessed to some other dude via internet chat. It seems to me that anything confessed over (non-video non-voice text only) internet chat should be completely inadmissible as there really is no way to know who you are talking to.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#193

Post by bugsy »

ugh wrote: post #191
bugsy wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Constitution prohibits slavery except as a punishment for crime . The punishment for each crime is set by a judge during sentencing after a guilty conviction and it is very specific. Sentencing a prisoner to punishment in the form of prison for 10 years is not the same as sentencing to punishment of slave labor for 10 years. The two are completely different. If a judge has not sentenced the prisoner to slave labo…

The article I linked to claims that the language of the amendment bars legal challenges to unpaid or minimally paid prison labor. (It also mentions the book you mentioned.) The Thirteenth Amendment which is ostensibly about slavery would seem to ban prison labor outside of prisons. That’s the connection I wanted to make. Is there something to that? I know that I’m casting a wide net. Prison labor is certainly not the…

"The Thirteenth Amendment which is ostensibly about slavery would seem to ban prison labor outside of prisons."

That seems like quite a stretch and isn't really consistent with the language.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#194

Post by pygy_ »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #116
barrkel wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criminals are created by (a) laws, (b) their transgression, and (c) their enforcement. You seem to think that the whole issue is in (b) - that there's something about the US that causes more people to act unlawfully, to transgress. Have you considered other possibilities, such as unjust laws, or unequal application of laws? Besides that, there's social issues, whereby subgroups are disadvantaged and have fewer opport…

It's certainly the case that (b) is a major role. Forget about convictions - lets just look at crimes. The US murder rate is 5/100,000 people, Britain, Denmark and similar countries have about 1/100,000 people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... The reason why we are different from much of Europe isn't a secret, it's just taboo to discuss. Most of our crime is confined to a small subset o…

> [Murder conviction is proportionately much higher in Black people]

What happens when you control for income?

In Europe, race appears to play a major role in criminality, unless you take wealth into account. Models controlling for social factors don't reveal any significant race effect.

Poverty is the real culprit. I wouldn't be surprised if this transfered to the US.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#195

Post by derefr »

bugsy wrote: post #189
derefr wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on your definition of "decide." Some things are crimes because it is in human nature to revile them, and to enforce social mores against them.

What things exactly? Killing people? That is widely supported through ongoing wars, trade embargoes, abortion, and the death penalty. Rape? What we call rape in many states in the USA, an 18 yr old having consensual sex with a 16 yr old, is accepted in other parts of the world. Or let's take Sweden's definition, having consensual sex without a condom. That's not against the law in most places. Pedophilia? Anthropolog…

The most obvious case is property theft. Everyone feels some sort of base emotional sting when something that they have grown attached to is forcefully taken away from them. This can be generalized to conceptual belongings: pride, control, honor, dignity, etc. can also be "stolen" in various ways.

The more serious immoral acts, however, of the kind that leave their subjects unable to emote (whether because they are dead, in a coma, "brainwashed", or whatever else) have to be analyzed from an in-group vs. out-group perspective. Given a "tribal unit", murder by outsiders of the tribe, to insiders in the tribe is universally reviled by tribe members. As we all (except sociopaths) mentally assign ourselves one or more tribes, this is generalizable back to all of humanity.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#196

Post by ugh »

bugsy wrote: post #193
ugh wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article I linked to claims that the language of the amendment bars legal challenges to unpaid or minimally paid prison labor. (It also mentions the book you mentioned.) The Thirteenth Amendment which is ostensibly about slavery would seem to ban prison labor outside of prisons. That’s the connection I wanted to make. Is there something to that? I know that I’m casting a wide net. Prison labor is certainly not the…

"The Thirteenth Amendment which is ostensibly about slavery would seem to ban prison labor outside of prisons." That seems like quite a stretch and isn't really consistent with the language.

It seems like at least some law professors agree with you but courts have generally decided otherwise: http://prisonlaw.wordpress.com/2010/12/16/a-different-take-o...

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#197

Post by uniclaude »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #116
barrkel wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criminals are created by (a) laws, (b) their transgression, and (c) their enforcement. You seem to think that the whole issue is in (b) - that there's something about the US that causes more people to act unlawfully, to transgress. Have you considered other possibilities, such as unjust laws, or unequal application of laws? Besides that, there's social issues, whereby subgroups are disadvantaged and have fewer opport…

It's certainly the case that (b) is a major role. Forget about convictions - lets just look at crimes. The US murder rate is 5/100,000 people, Britain, Denmark and similar countries have about 1/100,000 people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... The reason why we are different from much of Europe isn't a secret, it's just taboo to discuss. Most of our crime is confined to a small subset o…

If the subset you're talking about is blacks and maybe other racial minorities, I have to disagree with you. This subset is far from being "mostly absent" from Spain, UK, Portugal, Italy, France, Netherlands, and Germany for example.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#198

Post by forensic »

derefr wrote: post #178
forensic wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they should get paid for every prisoner they rehabilitate instead of incarcerate

Isn't that a bit like using "bugs fixed" as a metric of programmer quality? It gives them an incentive to get lots of people in for nothing, do nothing, and then call them "rehabilitated."

obviously the metric for "rehabilitated" needs to be judged by someone other than the prisons

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#199

Post by natabbotts »

ugh wrote: post #196
bugsy wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The Thirteenth Amendment which is ostensibly about slavery would seem to ban prison labor outside of prisons." That seems like quite a stretch and isn't really consistent with the language.

It seems like at least some law professors agree with you but courts have generally decided otherwise: http://prisonlaw.wordpress.com/2010/12/16/a-different-take-o...

That article starts with a reference to an earlier blog post which seems to be more in line with what you are saying. Perhaps in future you could read the articles you link to and include the relevant information? A link is not an argument in itself.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#200

Post by ugh »

natabbotts wrote: post #199
ugh wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like at least some law professors agree with you but courts have generally decided otherwise: http://prisonlaw.wordpress.com/2010/12/16/a-different-take-o...

That article starts with a reference to an earlier blog post which seems to be more in line with what you are saying. Perhaps in future you could read the articles you link to and include the relevant information? A link is not an argument in itself.

I already linked to and extensively quoted the other article this article links to a few levels higher up ;-)
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