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No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

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Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#341

Post by thecatspaw »

kami8845 wrote: post #340
jacquesm wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to belittle the man's other achievements but speaking four languages is pretty normal in Europe, except when you're from the UK.

No it's not, what are you talking about? I've met thousands of young Europeans and ones that speak 4 languages are extremely rare. Unless they're from countries where they get 2 languages "for free" like Holland/Belgium/Switzerland. Definitely not "pretty normal".

I am swiss and the only Languages I speak are German and english. I should have learned french as well (and had it for a few years in school), but things tend to not stick if you're beeing forced to learn it against your will.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#342

Post by rofo1 »

I'd love to see high-stakes heads-up bot vs Tom Dwan or Negreanu.

Maybe a bot technically qualifies as an opponent in durrr's challenge [0]? :)

How would bluffing influence the outcome? Both these players who are considered very strong, are known to play all kinds of hands.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Dwan#Full_Tilt_Poker_Durrr...

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#343

Post by blancheneige »

jacquesm wrote: post #296
thomasfl wrote: post #283

One of the researchers, Tuomas Sundholm, has a real badass CV. Former pilot in the Finnish airforce. Finnish windsurfer champion. Snowboarder. Professor at Carnegie Mellon. Speaks four european languages, including swedish. And now at the age of 51, he has created the best AI powered poker bot. https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sandholm/cv.pdf

Not to belittle the man's other achievements but speaking four languages is pretty normal in Europe, except when you're from the UK.

it's pretty normal in backwater countries that can't thrive on their own. otherwise not so much.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#344

Post by sakarisson »

Jach wrote: post #208
meruru wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always found weird that someone would want to cheat in a game like online chess. I mean, what's the point? Does anyone have insight on what's going on in the head of cheaters?

A few reasons come to mind. One is simply that if you have any metrics (ranking, win/loss ratio, greater site access..) it's going to feel nice to see them improve. Another is that losing at anything can be ego-hurting (similar reason good players sometimes sandbag with new accounts / lower ranks they can't possibly lose to, they need to 'win' more). Or reverse sandbagging/trolling with a bot might be amusing. Anothe…

Other players justify cheating by convincing themselves that everyone else is cheating.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#345

Post by moate »

MRD85 wrote: post #307
amelius wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So will this be the end of online poker?

I'm sitting here considering the possibility of making my own bot to play low stakes online poker ($1.50 sit n go). Run it on 6 tables at once and I imagine it would be facing really poor opponents and would have a steady flow of cash.

until your bot gets caught (possibly quickly) and then you're banned from the sites.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#346

Post by noambrown »

slg wrote: post #244
noambrown wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the bot would make a lot of money playing against average recreational players, but it's absolutely true that if you can exploit bad players' weaknesses, then you can make more money than what the bot would earn. We played 10,000 hands over 12 days in the 5 humans + 1 AI experiment. That's quite a long time, and there's no indication that they even began to uncover any weaknesses in that time period. So I'm f…

That 10,000 total hands number isn't particularly meaningful on the point of adaptability because the humans aren't sharing information with each other. The important number is how many hands each individual human played against the AI. Another question would be whether the pros knew which player was the AI? Because if they didn't, you are basically throwing a modified Turing Test against the pros before they can eve…

The humans knew the whole time which player was the bot.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#347

Post by mooneater »

kqr wrote: post #266
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Pluribus is also unusual because it costs far less to train and run than other recent AI systems for benchmark games. Some experts in the field have worried that future AI research will be dominated by large teams with access to millions of dollars in computing resources. We believe Pluribus is powerful evidence that novel approaches that require only modest resources can drive cutting-edge AI research. That's the…

Yes! I work for a company that does just this: pull big gears on limited data and try to generalise across groups of things to get intelligent results even on small data. In many ways, it absolutely feels like the future.

Interesting, are you using bayesian methods?

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#348

Post by madog »

tialaramex wrote: post #308
Phillipharryt wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in online poker high level players make great use of player tagging, taking notes about players they have played before and what they've done in important hands or their patterns. Software exists to track how opponents behave in any given situation, and if it pops up again you use that. I would think if professional players are utilising this information, a bot could benefit from it. I don't see how they would e…

Player tagging just makes you exploitable. I play one way now, you tag me "Haha, fool bet-folds way too much" and then I change it up to exploit you, "Huh, I keep trying to fold him out with worse and he doesn't bite even though my notes say he will". The theoretically optimal play just skips that meta and meta-meta play and performs optimally anyway. Because poker involves chance the optimal play will be stochastic…

You would be a fool to act based off only 2 instances of seeing a particular behaviour. That's why you have to weigh up how many instances you've seen. Sometimes if it's less than X instances it's not worth considering that particular statistic as valid.

Now say I have thousands of hands viewed against you, and you raise pre-flop 50% of the time. That is pretty significant information about the types of hands you play. If I have only 10 hands I've observed, that same stat means nothing.

The theoretical optimal play depends on who you're playing, as more value could be extracted in certain situations vs certain players.

For example, if I've seen you face a pre-flop 3-bet 1000 times and you've folded 99% of the time. That would be a good opportunity to recognise that 3-bet bluffing this player more often would have value, and be a more optimal play than some default. Contrast playing someone who called pre-flop 3-bets 75% of the time it wouldn't be optimal to 3 bet bluff here. Different opponents, different optimal plays.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#349

Post by jvanderbot »

bjoli wrote: post #321
diggan wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> speaking four languages is pretty normal in Europe Clearly we have different experiences (swedish person living in spain currently) but I haven't met that many people who speak four languages and are from a european country (but have yet to been in eastern europe). That finns speak swedish is a special case though, as AFAIK, they learn swedish in school and being finn-swedish is a thing too.

I am a classical musician, and in my profession it is quite common. I speak a lowly 3 languages, but many colleagues speak 4+. It is a very international market, and if you leave your home country to study, it is not uncommon to work in yet another country before returning home. Our solo flute speaks a whopping 6 languages well, and I suspect our harp player knows even more.

Id love to know how you earned those downvotes.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#350

Post by kyleblarson »

thomasfl wrote: post #306
jacquesm wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to belittle the man's other achievements but speaking four languages is pretty normal in Europe, except when you're from the UK.

Most norwegians only speak 2 languages. Swedish and danish is very similar to norwegian, more like dialects, so it doesn't count.

I am on holiday in Norway right now and have been super impressed by the english fluency of most people I have spoken with. It goes far beyond basic conversational fluency.
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