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The coal mine that ate Hambacher forest

bbc.co.uk

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Re: The coal mine that ate Hambacher forest

#11

Post by maze-le »

roenxi wrote: post #4
jfk13 wrote: post #2

The scale of the scars on the earth here is pretty staggering: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Hambach+Forest/@50.89999...

Impressive, aren't they? The industrial muscle keeping people warm and happy. I assume Germany has a modern program of mine rehabilitation, so you're only able to see the parts that are currently part of the active mine. The historic mine footprint of an old mine is probably twice or thrice what is visible; much larger but invisible from satellite because it has been rehabilitated. Eg, the area just north-west of Tag…

Yes, there is such a program. There is a region in eastern Germany, that was known as the 'death triangle' during the DDR -- the region between Bitterfeld, Halle and Borna (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.364936,12.2644447,63124m/dat...). The region was dominated by coal mining and chemical industry -- greyish-black snows and acid rains were not uncommon. If you look at the map today, there are lots of lakes where there were extensive coal mining projects in the past. Nowadays they are a popular tourist destination.

Re: The coal mine that ate Hambacher forest

#12

Post by gmueckl »

quibbler wrote: post #5
roenxi wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Impressive, aren't they? The industrial muscle keeping people warm and happy. I assume Germany has a modern program of mine rehabilitation, so you're only able to see the parts that are currently part of the active mine. The historic mine footprint of an old mine is probably twice or thrice what is visible; much larger but invisible from satellite because it has been rehabilitated. Eg, the area just north-west of Tag…

If it can be rehabilitated, is it really so bad? Some are also coverted to lakes, in the hopes of creating attractive leisure destinations.

Forests take time to grow and mature. Animals that live in these forests often have nowhere to go when these are cut down. Especially smaller species may not have the ability to flee when the saws come. Also, forests in Germany often are reduced to unconnected patches separated by open fields. Large connected forests are rare.

Re: The coal mine that ate Hambacher forest

#15

Post by lake99 »

bubblewrap wrote: post #8

Might be worth noting, that at the same time historical forests are being cut down for wind power, with the support of the Green party. For example https://rettet-den-reinhardswald.de/ - a forest that is famous as a setting for many of the Grimm's fairy tales. Protests so far are only few. It doesn't fit the narrative, so our German state media doesn't make a huge deal out of it. I have also heard that the "good" pro…

Do you know what the German protesters are proposing as an alternative? Germany banned nuclear, brown lignite is bad, extensive mining destroys forests, wind power destroys forests and is bad for birds, Germany is not a good candidate for solar, and so on. So what's next?

Re: The coal mine that ate Hambacher forest

#16

Post by bubblewrap »

lake99 wrote: post #15
bubblewrap wrote: post #8

Might be worth noting, that at the same time historical forests are being cut down for wind power, with the support of the Green party. For example https://rettet-den-reinhardswald.de/ - a forest that is famous as a setting for many of the Grimm's fairy tales. Protests so far are only few. It doesn't fit the narrative, so our German state media doesn't make a huge deal out of it. I have also heard that the "good" pro…

Do you know what the German protesters are proposing as an alternative? Germany banned nuclear, brown lignite is bad, extensive mining destroys forests, wind power destroys forests and is bad for birds, Germany is not a good candidate for solar, and so on. So what's next?

They believe in a fairy tale of green energy without any side effects. I don't think they have a clear concept of a viable solution.

The irony is that they blame their parents, whose generation protested against nuclear power. Presumably the only alternative that would have stood a chance to reduce climate change.

Re: The coal mine that ate Hambacher forest

#17

Post by hannob »

bubblewrap wrote: post #8

Might be worth noting, that at the same time historical forests are being cut down for wind power, with the support of the Green party. For example https://rettet-den-reinhardswald.de/ - a forest that is famous as a setting for many of the Grimm's fairy tales. Protests so far are only few. It doesn't fit the narrative, so our German state media doesn't make a huge deal out of it. I have also heard that the "good" pro…

> Might be worth noting, that at the same time historical forests are being cut down for wind power

It is practically never the case that a forest is cut down for wind power. You cut down a couple of trees for the turbine grounding and for some ways to reach them. But really if you look at the numbers it's not that much. The forest is still there afterwards. That's very different from "cutting down a forest" like it's done for opencast mining where nothing is left afterwards.

Re: The coal mine that ate Hambacher forest

#18

Post by Kliment »

lake99 wrote: post #15
bubblewrap wrote: post #8

Might be worth noting, that at the same time historical forests are being cut down for wind power, with the support of the Green party. For example https://rettet-den-reinhardswald.de/ - a forest that is famous as a setting for many of the Grimm's fairy tales. Protests so far are only few. It doesn't fit the narrative, so our German state media doesn't make a huge deal out of it. I have also heard that the "good" pro…

Do you know what the German protesters are proposing as an alternative? Germany banned nuclear, brown lignite is bad, extensive mining destroys forests, wind power destroys forests and is bad for birds, Germany is not a good candidate for solar, and so on. So what's next?

Germany is actually an excellent candidate for solar (though not nearly as much as places like Spain). It has an enormous solar installed base that produces a sizeable amount of energy, and had the buildout incentives not been cut a couple years back solar would be the second biggest electrical energy component today. Meanwhile coal is still heavily subsidized, to the tune of 4 billion euros yearly.

Re: The coal mine that ate Hambacher forest

#19

Post by imtringued »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #13

For someone who has been to Germany the scale and number of windturbines is amazing. It seems odd that they only account for 14% of their electricity production. By comparison I can't remember seeing any solar power infrastructure and yet that accounts for 7%.

I don't know where you got your numbers from. Wind power generated 20% of electricity in 2018 and 26% in the first half of 2019.

Re: The coal mine that ate Hambacher forest

#20

Post by hannob »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #13

For someone who has been to Germany the scale and number of windturbines is amazing. It seems odd that they only account for 14% of their electricity production. By comparison I can't remember seeing any solar power infrastructure and yet that accounts for 7%.

Depends a lot on the area. Most of the solar installations are in the richer southern areas on private houses, whereas the large wind installation can be mostly seen in eastern and northern germany.
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