Live data from Hacker News

No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

nature.com

161–170 of 407 posts

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#161
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We talk about this a bit in the paper. Based on the feedback from the pros, the bot seems to "donk bet" (call and then bet on the next round) much more than human pros do. It also randomizes between multiple bet sizes, including very large bet sizes, while humans stick to just one or two sizes depending on the situation.

When human players donk bet it's almost always a weak player employing an extremely exploitable strategy, whereas pros almost never do it because the metagame has evolved around the presumption that nobody ever donk bets. I'd love to see what the bot's balanced GTO donking strategy looks like.

It's basically been true along every step of the the poker bot evolution (HU limit, HU NL, and 6-max NL) that the bots donk a lot more than the humans. 10 years ago you could find pros arguing that donking in any situation is always wrong. That's been shifting for years, but still not to the level that the bots do it.

My personal belief is that the "no-donk" strategy is an adaptation by fallible human minds to reduce the branching on the decision tree to something tractable.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#162

I'm one of the authors of the bot, AMA

The bot does not seem to consider previous hands in its decisions. That is to say, it does not consider who it is playing against. Should this affect how we perceive the bot as “strategic” or not? Bots that play purely mathematically optimally on expected value aren’t effective or interesting. But it feels like this is playing on just a much higher order expected value.

It feels like a more down to earth version of the sci fi super human running impossible differential equations to predict exactly what you will do given knowledge that he knows what you know what he knows... etc. ad Infinitum. But since it doesn’t actually consider the person it’s predicting, it may simply be a really really good approximation of the game theoretic dominant strategy.

At what complexity of game and hidden information should we feel like the bot can’t win by running a lookup table?

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#163

I'm one of the authors of the bot, AMA

For someone not in the AI field, can you explain why AI is needed and an elaborate code with conditional blocks is not enough? Where does AI fit in with a poker game.

Conditional blocks would work, but it would be an impossibly detailed and granular tree to setup. The AI component simply helps you arrive at the decisions to create the complex tree.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it took the community a while to come up with the right algorithms. So much of early AI research was focused on beating humans at chess and later Go. But those techniques don't directly carry over to an imperfect-information game like poker. The challenge of hidden information was kind of neglected by the AI community. This line of research really has its origins in the game theory community actually (which i…

So will this be the end of online poker?

Just bet on bots playing each other.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#165
post #148

I'm one of the authors of the bot, AMA

Could you perhaps speak to some of the engineering details that the paper glosses over. E.g.: - Are the action and information abstraction procedures hand-engineered or learned in some manner? - How does it decide how many bets to consider in a particular situation? - Is there anything interesting going on with how the strategy is compressed in memory? - How do you decide in the first betting round if a bet is far en…

We tried to make the paper as accessible as possible. A lot of these questions are covered in the supplementary material (along with pseudocode).

- Are the action and information abstraction procedures hand-engineered or learned in some manner?

- How does it decide how many bets to consider in a particular situation?

The information abstraction is determined by k-means clustering on certain features. There wasn't much thought put into the action abstraction because it turns out the exact sizes you use don't matter that much as long as the bot has enough options to choose from. We basically just did 0.25x pot, 0.5x pot, 1x pot, etc. The number of sizes varied depending on the situation.

- Is there anything interesting going on with how the strategy is compressed in memory?

Nope.

- How do you decide in the first betting round if a bet is far enough off-tree that online search is needed?

We set a threshold at $100.

- When searching beyond leaf nodes, how did you choose how far to bias the strategies toward calling, raising, and folding?

In each case, we multiplied by the biased action's probability by a factor of 5 and renormalized. In theory it doesn't really matter what the factor is.

- After it calculates how it would act with every possible hand, how does it use that to balance its strategy while taking into account the hand it is actually holding?

This comes out naturally from our use of Linear Counterfactual Regret Minimization in the search space. It's covered in more detail in the supplementary material

- In general, how much do these kind of engineering details and hyperparameters matter to your results and to the efficiency of training? How much time did you spend on this? Roughly how many lines of code are important for making this work?

I think it's all pretty robust to the choice of parameters, but we didn't do extensive testing to see. While these bots are quite easy to train, the variance is so high in poker that getting meaningful experimental results is relatively quite computationally expensive.

- Why does this training method work so well on CPUs vs GPUs? Do you think there are any lessons here that might improve training efficiency for 2-player perfect-information systems such as AlphaZero?

I think the key is that the search algorithm is picking up so much of the slack that we don't really need to train an amazing precomputed strategy. If we weren't using search, it would probably be infeasible to generate a strong 6-player poker AI. Search was also critical for previous AI benchmark victories like chess and Go.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#166
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also suspect it would not be able to maintain a ~40bb/100 hand win rate. The thing about human players is, while the best are capable of learning and employing truly balanced GTO strategies, in practice they rarely adhere to these because other humans (even good pros) will still have exploitable flaws in their strategies, and attempting to exploit these will be more profitable than sticking to the unexploitable str…

Yeah, that is kinda what I was trying to tease out. These 10K hands are nothing compared to the XM of hands these pros have already played. It would be interesting to see how well they did after 1M hands. I'm sure the bot would likely still have an edge but I'd assume the players would adjust their strategy and but less confused by the random sized bets. I was also confused by the sample videos where everyone had $10…

The fixed stack size doesn't really discount anything to me - it makes sense as an experimental control; and it's a cash game so there's no additional risk to going all in regardless of stack size.

But yea the sample size is definitely too small imo; when tested the heads up version of the bot some years ago they had it play a bigger sample (50 or 100k iirc?).

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#167

I'm one of the authors of the bot, AMA

Very interesting results. From the paper it sounds like the algorithms you used are very similar to Libratus (pre-solved blueprint + subgame solving). What change made it so that the computation requirement is much lower now?

There were several improvements but the most important was the depth-limited search. Libratus would always search to the end of the game. But that's not necessarily feasible in a game as complex as six-player poker. With these new algorithms, we don't need to go to the end of the game. Instead, we can stop at some arbitrary depth limit (as is done in chess and Go AI's). That drastically reduces the amount of compute needed.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#168

I'm one of the authors of the bot, AMA

In your Science paper, you mention playing 1H-5AI against 2 human players: Chris Ferguson and Darren Elias. In your blog post you also mention playing 1H-5AI against Linus Loelinger, who was within standard error of even money. Why did Linus not make it into the Science paper?

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#169

I'm one of the authors of the bot, AMA

Who were the pros? Are they credible endbosses? Seth Davies works at RIO which deserves respect but I've never heard of the others except Chris Ferguson who I doubt is a very good player by todays standards (or human being, for that matter), but I've never heard of the others when I do know the likes of LLinusLove (iirc, the king of 6max), Polk and Phil Ganford. Is 10,000 hands really considered a good enough sample?…

They're credible enough. I'd like the sample sizes to be bigger as well but they're enough to verify that even if the bot got lucky over the sample size, it's close enough that it doesn't really matter. Add a bit more compute, optimize some algorithms a little, and you'd make up the difference. The real point is that they have a technique that scales to 6-max, and whether it's 97% or 99% is kind of immaterial in the grand scheme of things.

FWIW, they did some variance reduction techniques that dramatically reduce the number of hands needed to be confident in your results, so the number of hands may be bigger than you think. e.g. the results of 10k HU hands have much higher variance than the results of 10k HU hands where everyone just collects their EV once they're all in.

Re: No limit: AI poker bot is first to beat professionals at multiplayer game

#170

This is fascinating stuff. So do I understand this right, Liberatus worked using computing the Nash equilibrium, while the new multiplayer version works using self-play like AlphaGo Zero? Did you run the multiplayer version against the two-player version? If yes, how did it go? Could you recommend a series of books / papers that can take me from zero to being able to reprogram this (I know programming and mathematics…

Training was super cheap. It would cost under $150 on cloud computing services. The training aspect has some improvements but is at its core similar to Libratus. The search algorithm is the biggest difference. There aren't that many great resources out there for helping new people get caught up to speed on this area. That's something we hope to fix in the future. Maybe this would be a good place to start? http://mode…

Is Oskari Tammelin still working on this stuff? I remember he wrote some very fast CFR optimisations a few years ago
Post reply on HN