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Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

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Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#391

Post by pvg »

Crinus wrote: post #388
pvg wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still have a lot of trouble seeing how Apple removing a critical vulnerability - a completely mundane act with plenty of precedent from both Apple and others - is some clarion call that, if left unheeded, will have Siri judging everyone's hentai collection next. Why this - preventing myriads of users from becoming campeople - of all things? Why not, say, every Chrome autoupdate ever?

> I still have a lot of trouble seeing how Apple removing a critical vulnerability You have that trouble because you are focusing on the "critical vulnerability" part and ignoring the fact that Apple decided to uninstall a program they had nothing to do with from your computer without your consent. The intentions might be noble, the implications however are less so.

But they didn't uninstall 'a program'. The product itself was unaffected. And, again, this was done in consultation with the makers of the 'program' who had screwed up badly enough to be unable to fix the problem themselves. Nothing happened here that doesn't regularly happen when all sorts of things update.

Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#392

Post by Crinus »

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #323
userbinator wrote: post #110

It's been rather disturbing to see this whole thing play out --- I'm not taking sides here, but Apple "flexing its arms" in this manner shows that it is willing and has the power to go beyond policing its App Store and such (which while I do not like, I feel it does have the right to) and involve itself in the affairs of third-party software which it did not originally install. (This is subtly different from updating…

> You may agree with its decision this time, but will you always agree? To be honest I'm kinda sick of this argument. Someone brings this argument up _every single time_ a tech company takes action against something malicious. It's a strawman argument at best and at worst a way to give people an out on acting against something that could harm the user. > Apple's wielding of power in this way is likely to attract the…

> Someone brings this argument up _every single time_ a tech company takes action against something malicious.

The argument isn't about taking action against something malicious, the argument is about the implications of being able to take that action and what sort of power the company has and if they should have it in light of past abuses (not necessarily but that company, but this is totally irrelevant since companies are made up of people that come and go, they do not have a single "brain" or morality).

> This will never happen.

You cannot guarantee that.

Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#393

Post by Crinus »

a13n wrote: post #157
userbinator wrote: post #110

It's been rather disturbing to see this whole thing play out --- I'm not taking sides here, but Apple "flexing its arms" in this manner shows that it is willing and has the power to go beyond policing its App Store and such (which while I do not like, I feel it does have the right to) and involve itself in the affairs of third-party software which it did not originally install. (This is subtly different from updating…

I'm so glad that Apple pushes updates to protect me as a user. Why would I want to be vulnerable to unwanted webcam access? I am an Apple customer, and I now feel even happier about being one.

> Why would I want to be vulnerable to unwanted webcam access?

You shouldn't want. But at the same time i do not think it is a good idea to want Apple to be able to silently remove arbitrary applications they had nothing to do with from your computer.

At the very least they should ask the user about it or quarantine the software and inform the user about it. AFAIK this is what Windows Defender does when it finds malicious files.

Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#394

Post by Crinus »

castis wrote: post #113
userbinator wrote: post #110

It's been rather disturbing to see this whole thing play out --- I'm not taking sides here, but Apple "flexing its arms" in this manner shows that it is willing and has the power to go beyond policing its App Store and such (which while I do not like, I feel it does have the right to) and involve itself in the affairs of third-party software which it did not originally install. (This is subtly different from updating…

How do you feel about Windows Defender?

Windows Defender will not silently remove the software completely, it will quarantine it and make sure you know about its actions (i mean, it does make sure you know it exists even when there are no issues by its constant "Windows defender scanned your system and found no issues" notifications).

At this point it is up to the user to decide what to do and most non-technical users will leave it at that (and wont know what else to do) which should keep them safe.

Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#395

Post by geocar »

Why do web browsers even allow access to localhost? Seems like developers just use this to abuse/violate user preferences anyway.

I think I'd be happy with a popup once-per-tab asking me for permission for a web page to talk to a local web server... Might even be okay if it's scary (Are you a developer?)

Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#396

Post by Crinus »

bin0 wrote: post #210
vbezhenar wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's Apple's closed garden, even when they allow you to sideload application, they still have the ultimate decision. Of course it's not malware, but probably enough users have vulnerable software which could be remotely exploited, that they decided to blacklist it.

Microsoft could do the same with Windows Defender with jutification, had the windows version exhibited the same malicious behavior.

Windows Defender wouldn't do it silently though, it would make sure you know what happened and get more information about it - even reverse its actions.

Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#397

Post by Mindwipe »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #121
userbinator wrote: post #110

It's been rather disturbing to see this whole thing play out --- I'm not taking sides here, but Apple "flexing its arms" in this manner shows that it is willing and has the power to go beyond policing its App Store and such (which while I do not like, I feel it does have the right to) and involve itself in the affairs of third-party software which it did not originally install. (This is subtly different from updating…

lol they removed what would be called horrific spyware if it wasn’t made by Zoom and you’re over here on some lofty criticism about possible implications years into the future any OS (and many other apps) that update have the power to do what you’re afraid of, and much more. plus i don’t really see a bright line between system level software and an app when apps can access your video cam, mic, all your files - basica…

This is effectively a press release to the Russian and Chinese governments that Apple could unilaterally remove all VPN software from Macs in a territory if they were compelled to.

If you don't think that's scary then you're just incapable of long term thinking.

Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#398

Post by jinglebells »

taftster wrote: post #231
donarb wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac OS is a multi-user operating system. Most applications that are installed are global to the system although each user also has their own Applications folder. The Application Support folder resides in the user's Library folder and contains information that the app needs when running for that particular user. Storing information in the .app bundle would affect every user on that computer.

You're saying that an application can't write user specific information into the bundle and sort that out? There's no difference between these two (hypothetical) file paths: /Applications/SomeApp.app/users/taftster/user.specific.data /Users/taftster/Library/Application Support/SomeApp/user.specific.data These two file paths are effectively the same. And when the "global" application gets deleted, I most definitely wa…

You absolutely wouldn't want user data stored in app bundles. You can back up all user data by backing up /Users/ or /home/ on Linux.

As an application developer, I want to be able to drop a new bundle over the old version and NOT LOSE ANY USER DATA. The only way to do that is separate them completely.

Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#399

Post by Crinus »

pvg wrote: post #391
Crinus wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I still have a lot of trouble seeing how Apple removing a critical vulnerability You have that trouble because you are focusing on the "critical vulnerability" part and ignoring the fact that Apple decided to uninstall a program they had nothing to do with from your computer without your consent. The intentions might be noble, the implications however are less so.

But they didn't uninstall 'a program'. The product itself was unaffected. And, again, this was done in consultation with the makers of the 'program' who had screwed up badly enough to be unable to fix the problem themselves. Nothing happened here that doesn't regularly happen when all sorts of things update.

These are unimportant details, the issue is with Apple modifying people's computers silently and the users themselves having no knowledge or any say about it.

Replace this instance with something that you disagree about (imagine Apple removing VPN software from Chinese customers due to demands from China or "fixing" existing VPN software with backdoors that enable Chinese authorities to wiretap Chinese people) and see what the issue is here.

(if that example would happen or not is irrelevant, i'm making it to help you see the issue in a context i think you'd disagree with Apple about, i'm not making it for you to argue if that would happen or not)

Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#400

Post by teget »

saagarjha wrote: post #353
kabwj wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s funny. Windows’ own tool for these matters is called... MRT.exe

Maybe it stands for Malware Removal Tool on Windows as well.

IIRC "Malicious Software Removal Tool" but close enough I guess.
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