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Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

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Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#241
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac OS is a multi-user operating system. Most applications that are installed are global to the system although each user also has their own Applications folder. The Application Support folder resides in the user's Library folder and contains information that the app needs when running for that particular user. Storing information in the .app bundle would affect every user on that computer.

You're saying that an application can't write user specific information into the bundle and sort that out? There's no difference between these two (hypothetical) file paths: /Applications/SomeApp.app/users/taftster/user.specific.data /Users/taftster/Library/Application Support/SomeApp/user.specific.data These two file paths are effectively the same. And when the "global" application gets deleted, I most definitely wa…

> /Applications/SomeApp.app/users/taftster/user.specific.data

This doesn't work well for a few reasons:

- The Unix permission model makes it difficult to set that up in a way that doesn't allow someone to access someone else's user-specific data, or otherwise tamper with the app.

- Some setups sync home directories across the network, so everything related to a particular user needs to be under their home directory. Applications, on the other hand, would be part of the read-only OS image.

- If you delete a user in System Preferences, it gives you the option to delete their data or archive it. This works by deleting or archiving their home directory; things would be much messier if their data were scattered all over the disk.

- It breaks the concept of an app bundle as a immutable, sealed tree that can have its validity checked via code signature.

- If you're searching through your disk to see what's using up disk space, mingling user data with the app itself makes it harder to distinguish between the two.

- If the app decides to start storing its data in iCloud and syncing it across devices, it wouldn't make any sense to have it within the app bundle: among other things, you don't want the app's immutable data (i.e. what's in the app bundle today) to count towards your storage quota, and the data may be shared between, e.g., the macOS and iOS version of an app. (Application Support itself is not synced to iCloud, though.)

> And when the "global" application gets deleted, I most definitely want all the user data deleted with it as well.

Do you?

- What if you're just upgrading the app? If you download a new app bundle, drag it into Applications, and tell Finder to overwrite, it will delete everything in the old bundle.

- What if you're migrating to a new Mac? You may prefer to reinstall applications manually instead of copying everything, but that doesn't mean you want to lose your data.

- Even if you do want to delete the app entirely, does that actually mean you want to lose your data from that app? What if you're planning on reinstalling it in the future? iOS does automatically delete data when deleting an app, but it's not at all obvious to me that that's the best behavior.

Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#242
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac OS is a multi-user operating system. Most applications that are installed are global to the system although each user also has their own Applications folder. The Application Support folder resides in the user's Library folder and contains information that the app needs when running for that particular user. Storing information in the .app bundle would affect every user on that computer.

You're saying that an application can't write user specific information into the bundle and sort that out? There's no difference between these two (hypothetical) file paths: /Applications/SomeApp.app/users/taftster/user.specific.data /Users/taftster/Library/Application Support/SomeApp/user.specific.data These two file paths are effectively the same. And when the "global" application gets deleted, I most definitely wa…

In addition, users can run applications from a CDROM or a read only USB stick, where the app would not be able to write anything.

Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I am not sure how dragging the .app to the trash would uninstall other things installed by the app. If I drag photoshop to my trash instead of using Adobe’s uninstaller, I’m pretty sure that leaves Creative Cloud junk running on my machine. Now, zoom did mess up by not having a proper uninstaller shipped with their app, I think a lot of other Mac apps do fail at this too though.

Yes, as is, dragging apps to the trash cannot do that. Apple should probably implement an API that allows developers to tell the OS what other stuff should be removed if the app is dragged to the trash. To prevent devs from removing other people's stuff, you could require that the subcomponents need to be cryptographically signed with the same key as the main app bundle. edit: or, even simpler solution (potentially)…

No, on OS X there is literally no reason to move anything from out of your application bundle. Copying the server out of the application bundle had one effect: it makes removing the app not remove the server.

There are apis to register for launch, there are launch service plists, etc which all correctly, and by default handle the user deleting your app bundle.

There are already “cryptographic mechanisms to detect modification of your app”, it’s the platform code signing mechanism, and Xcode will produced signed binaries by default.

Finally, your post comes across as saying that you believe leaving the server was unintentional due to lack of APIs (ignoring that removing an application is a sign that the user doesn’t want your app to run any code). Their “unintentionally” persistent server explicitly check for the app being removed, and if it had been, would redownload it and install it without user consent.

Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because macos has no decent concept of package management or containerization.

that is explicitly incorrect. macos has a very nice and effective way of packaging all the components needed by an app into tidy bundles. the problem in this case is that the developers just couldn't be assed even trying.

Not really, If you have a standard app that can be dragged into the trash, sure. If you have a kernel extension, or a launch deamon or any application data you store locally you cannot clean up after yourself without a custom uninstaller. Windows is far ahead in its centralized Add&Remove Programs area.

Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#245
post #42

This means there might have been another side to this story: Zoom's change of heart might have been forced by Apple, not the public backlash. Apple: Hey, your app poses a threat to macOS security. We're going to remove your server app with the built-in macOS anti-virus. Zoom: Oh crap. Okay, give us 2 sprints to release a new version that removes it. Apple: We're killing it in 48 hours. ... Zoom, after an all-nighter:…

Wild speculation.

Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#246
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"(because the uninstalled leaves the web server behind)" For cripes sake...

Because macos has no decent concept of package management or containerization.

macOS has a very good concept of package management and containerization. It's just optional because people get even more up in arms when their old software doesn't work any more.

Apple also makes a fantastic computing platform with very good mandatory isolation, namely, iOS. If you're interested in isolation in preference to compatibility with traditional desktop software, an unjailbroken iPad Pro with Smart Keyboard is a pretty good option.

Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#247

That's pretty epic. Apple continues to make big, brave moral gestures (like when they yanked Facebook and Google's enterprise certs earlier this year, or killed long-term tracking cookies in Safari overnight). Makes me happy to be a customer. Hope they keep enforcing their own rules and protecting their users' privacy and security in this fearless manner.

I do appreciate Apple's overall stance and actions regarding privacy, but I see this as a very practical action for their own self-interest. Apple has staked its reputation on privacy. The headline-level summary of this incident is that Mac users are exclusively affected by Zoom's bug/security hole. Among consumers, unauthorized access to the webcam is the epitome of modern invasion of privacy. All it takes is one Apple user to be victimized for Apple's reputation on privacy to be as much of an ongoing punchline as Samsung's exploding phones.

Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#248
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac OS is a multi-user operating system. Most applications that are installed are global to the system although each user also has their own Applications folder. The Application Support folder resides in the user's Library folder and contains information that the app needs when running for that particular user. Storing information in the .app bundle would affect every user on that computer.

You're saying that an application can't write user specific information into the bundle and sort that out? There's no difference between these two (hypothetical) file paths: /Applications/SomeApp.app/users/taftster/user.specific.data /Users/taftster/Library/Application Support/SomeApp/user.specific.data These two file paths are effectively the same. And when the "global" application gets deleted, I most definitely wa…

It’s a design choice, and of course it arguable but it have it’s (good) reasons.

By design choice user data of any App should be only be readable and modifiable by the active user. If user data is stored somewhere under home folder, this mechanism comes for free for the App developer and the OS handle it. If you want that same level of privacy in the App Bundle developers would have to handle it themselves (and well).

But then what happen when you uninstall ? Either you are blocked because you can’t remove data from another user or you somehow require escalation to admin privileges to remove data of all users at once. Which might or might not make other users happy if they were unaware of the uninstall...

With current data model choice (pretty much shared across all UNIX world and even Windows). If user A delete the App but user B still needed it you just have to reinstall to keep user B unharmed.

Your proposal is not bad to optimize for disk space gain at removal, it just happen that (quite rightfully) OS vendors chooses to rather optimize for data persistence and security.

Re: Apple has pushed a silent Mac update to remove hidden Zoom web server

#250
Apple is punishing Zoom, because they explicitly built this mess to get around Safari appropriately prompting users to decide whether they wanted to open the app on each meeting join. If you are a safari user, there was never a vulnerability. You’d be prompted. Why is no one talking about Chrome and Firefox’s lax security posture here? It’s frustrating.
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