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Project Vesta – Mitigating climate change with green sand beaches

projectvesta.org

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Re: Project Vesta – Mitigating climate change with green sand beaches

#231

Post by fiblye »

So we need to mine and strip the earth of materials at rates far beyond anything we’ve ever done before, then load it up on a fleet of ships larger than anything we have today, all burning the filthiest bunker fuel there is at unprecedented rates to manage the largest shipping operation ever, and dump it all on isolated, natural beaches far from human eyes. Plus we need to check the purity of all of this to ensure no nickel wipes out life as we know it, since inspecting a quantity of stone greater than our entire global fuel harvest operations is a reasonable expectation.

I’m sure no cost cutting or harm would come about from this. These companies would definitely be ethical with their operations from start to finish, and they’d be held to high environmental scrutiny.

Alternatively, we plant trees, reduce meat consumption, and buy local so that we’re not shipping shit back and forth from across the planet.

Re: Project Vesta – Mitigating climate change with green sand beaches

#232

Post by matznerd »

jtbayly wrote: post #223
matznerd wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are not pitching this as "THE" solution, but as "a" solution that can scale up to and beyond the global level of yearly CO2 emissions. Even after the "low-hanging opportunities" it makes a good amount of sense, as mining olivine is not difficult and there are large reserves on every continent. You are incorrect that olivine mining at a large scale would incur tremendous energy costs, it will not. I would suggest y…

4% loss of what? I’m not following.

When 1 tonne of olivine weathers, the chemical reaction removes 1.25 tonnes of free CO2 from the environment in terms of stoichiometry. However, in the process of mining, milling, and transporting that olivine to that beach, we emit approximately .05 tonnes of CO2 ourselves. That .05 of a tonne is 4% of the 1.25 tonnes of CO2 that was removed in the weathering process. So, in a CO2 life cycle assesment of net emissions, that considered the "loss."

Re: Project Vesta – Mitigating climate change with green sand beaches

#233

Post by peteradio »

dv_dt wrote: post #205
jordanpg wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could it be the case that contemporary governments and economies are just simply not structured to be forward thinking in this way? What if, in analogy to the transition out of feudalism, the next evolution of government and economies is one that allows for spending on future outcomes in a way that is impossible now? I have no idea what those institutions would look like -- I only know that hoping to solve global pro…

It's possible to create a way out of this by taking finance structures and adapting them to service public goods. A climate project bank might issue loan/grant type funding for projects, in a model much like how the U.S. mortgage market and fannie mae works right now. Loans are assessed for risk and financial return, and we can use the same type of transactional examination for a hybrid of risk, financial, and carbon…

What says the end points on the receiving end of the monies don't just jack up the rates similar to the University system in the U.S.?

Re: Project Vesta – Mitigating climate change with green sand beaches

#234

Post by NeedMoreTea »

fastball wrote: post #215
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a little confused by this, though I see your link picks it out as still speculative. You're planning to put the olivine on the beaches, the nickel accumulating plants will be planted above. So presumably they'll be as exposed to the action of the sea as the olivine. The document talks of use in poor soils, but no mention of coastal or beach. You've identified species suitable for that level of salt water exposure…

I read it as the olivine would be mined, plants would be used to extract nickel, and then the olivine would be moved to beaches.

Ah right, so a first pass before it gets to the beach, that makes much more sense now! Though no doubt introduces its own challenges related to how long it needs to sit under foliage before it's beach ready. :)

Re: Project Vesta – Mitigating climate change with green sand beaches

#235

Post by tempestn »

empath75 wrote: post #218
tempestn wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're altering the beaches for free, the countries would enjoy a portion of the common benefit without any cost. In fact, the new 'green' (literally and figuratively) beaches would probably be a greater tourist attraction, so if anything I'd expect it to be beneficial, plus secondary economic benefits from the work being done.

Possibly but they’re not going to be particularly walkable.

Why not? Sounds like it would be similar to other sand.

Re: Project Vesta – Mitigating climate change with green sand beaches

#236

Post by vermarish »

secfirstmd wrote: post #170
ip26 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The important part is pretending something will be done (ideally by someone else), not actually tackling it.

I'm an advocate that places like YCombinator should be pushing the places they invest in to take this seriously. Every company should have to present an environmental action plan and plan to become Carbon Neutral as part of its investment strategy. Right now, because it's the right thing to do, in future, because environmental exposure is a huge risk for companies YC has led the world in tech investments and growth/v…

Have you seen https://carbon.ycombinator.com ? It's less of a plan for going carbon neutral, and more of a list of moonshots for carbon reversal.

Re: Project Vesta – Mitigating climate change with green sand beaches

#237

Post by vermarish »

vermarish wrote: post #236
secfirstmd wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an advocate that places like YCombinator should be pushing the places they invest in to take this seriously. Every company should have to present an environmental action plan and plan to become Carbon Neutral as part of its investment strategy. Right now, because it's the right thing to do, in future, because environmental exposure is a huge risk for companies YC has led the world in tech investments and growth/v…

Have you seen https://carbon.ycombinator.com ? It's less of a plan for going carbon neutral, and more of a list of moonshots for carbon reversal.

It seems the site doesn't work with https on my device. http://carbon.ycombinator.com

Re: Project Vesta – Mitigating climate change with green sand beaches

#238

Post by matznerd »

ThomPete wrote: post #224
fc_barnes wrote: post #123

Well jeez. I know it's not a popular thought on HN, but climate change is a problem of such scale that it's going to need government-level funding and oversight to find and validate geoengineering solutions, and global-level funding and coordination to implement them. This third-way aspiration to a non-government solution just seems like a pipe dream.

Can you point to a scientifically predicted and demonstrated (not just speculated) consequence of climate change we don't know how to deal with?

How do we deal with 10-12 feet of global sea level rise nearly instantaneously? There is a single glacier called in an Antarctica called Thwaites which is also known as the "cork" on an Antarctic sea that, if it melts or comes unstuck, could cause that much sea level rise that quickly.

"Thwaites is like a cork in a wine bottle—when it melts, it could trigger the collapse of a large portion of West Antarctica, equal to roughly 11 feet of global sea rise." ... "Winds are now pushing a layer of warm ocean water up underneath part of the glacier that extends out into the sea and melting it, faster and faster. If that part breaks off, the entire glacier would destabilize."

https://www.wired.com/story/antarctica-thwaites-glacier-brea... https://interactive.pri.org/2019/05/antarctica/thwaites-glac... https://interactive.pri.org/2019/05/antarctica/doomed-glacie...

Re: Project Vesta – Mitigating climate change with green sand beaches

#239

Post by philipkglass »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #227
philipkglass wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reducing forest clearance and engaging in afforestation could be enough had anthropogenic CO2 emissions started dropping significantly in the 1990s. But they have continued to rise. Forestry changes aren't nearly enough to offset anthropogenic emissions from other sectors. They may be part of the solution but additional measures are needed. Geoengineering is on the table now not because it is an easy shortcut, but be…

A lot of assertions there. You lost me at “Forestry changes aren't nearly enough to offset anthropogenic emissions from other sectors”. Can you explain your math there? Is there a limit to how much carbon we can warehouse in trees (living and milled)?

If you keep harvesting trees and store them in a way that they won't rot or burn, there is no practical limit on the total amount of carbon that can be sequestered that way. There is still a limit on the rate at which carbon can be sequestered that way. To stabilize concentrations of atmospheric CO2, the sequestration rate must match current rates of anthropogenic CO2 emissions. If significant feedbacks kick in, the sequestration rate needs to be higher than current anthropogenic emission rates.

Here's one of the more optimistic studies I have seen about forestry-based approaches to curbing CO2:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/10/co%e2%82%82-benefits...

The authors estimate that afforestation and other positive land use changes could provide up to 37% of the CO2 reductions needed through the year 2030 in order to stay under 2 degrees of warming. The other 63% has to come from elsewhere.

Re: Project Vesta – Mitigating climate change with green sand beaches

#240

Post by ThomPete »

matznerd wrote: post #238
ThomPete wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to a scientifically predicted and demonstrated (not just speculated) consequence of climate change we don't know how to deal with?

How do we deal with 10-12 feet of global sea level rise nearly instantaneously? There is a single glacier called in an Antarctica called Thwaites which is also known as the "cork" on an Antarctic sea that, if it melts or comes unstuck, could cause that much sea level rise that quickly. "Thwaites is like a cork in a wine bottle—when it melts, it could trigger the collapse of a large portion of West Antarctica, equal t…

"If" is the important word here.

If an asteroid hit we won't be just dealing with 10-12 feet.

Do you have any scientific proof that this will happen or that it's likely to happen?

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