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Americans Are Horribly Misinformed About Who Has Money

good.is

131–140 of 194 posts

Re: Americans Are Horribly Misinformed About Who Has Money

#131
post #14

Poor Americans are simply much, much, much needier than people realize. You're not needier just because your neighbors are richer than you thought they were.

I think the idea is that your neighbours are poorer than you thought they were.

Exactly, a fancy house and an expensive SUV may mean they're deeper down in debt.

Re: Americans Are Horribly Misinformed About Who Has Money

#132
post #122
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with declining birth rates and increasing life expectancy. Unless you're talking about Japan, I'm going to ask that you provide hard numbers before throwing statements like this out.

Comparison of historical age distributions in the U.S. suggest this problem. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=u.s.+age+distribution+i... http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=u.s.+age+distribution+i... This problem is much worse in China.

Maybe I'm reading those wrong, but I'm not seeing 'declining birth rates' in that data. (I should have been clearer, but that was the issue that I had with the original statement)

Re: Americans Are Horribly Misinformed About Who Has Money

#133
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

someone unable to pay to heat more than one room had a dramatic photo of her showing her heating bill in her living room - with a 55" HDTV and Xbox360 in the same room. There's a difference between the ability to purchase one-off consumer goods and the kind of situation this person is in. Consider that those consumer goods may have been purchased before an economically catastrophic event such as an illness or a layof…

My inner libertarian is unable to comprehend the confusion of ideas that allows the purchase of a 55" HDTV et cetera without ~six months of rent in the bank. My inner liberal fires back with the complete, utter and deplorable lack of financial education and hence literacy in this country which is at the very least a partial cause of the most recent subprime financial kablooie. My inner conspiracy theorist mutters som…

My inner softy/dumbass bought a MacBook Pro as a gift for a single mom/graduate student I was involved with. At today's TV prices, it was enough to pay for a 55" TV (probably not a very good one) and an Xbox 360. She didn't even own a working car, but she had a $1400 laptop. Oh yeah, I also bought her a bicycle and took her and her kid skiing in Colorado. She was extremely frugal and did very well raising her kid and going to school basically on child support alone (she took on very little debt,) but anybody judging by her laptop and her stories of what she did over Christmas vacation would have thought she was irresponsible.

Re: Americans Are Horribly Misinformed About Who Has Money

#134
post #55

I find posts like this one depressing. They're cynical and shortsighted. The premise of such posts is that if people were aware of who was getting a tax cut they would be against it. Put another way: the premise is that everyone is purely motivated by self-interest. There are two immediate problems with this line of thinking. The first is tha it ignores how aspirational people are.i remember a survey from the 2000 el…

I don't see why you think the premise is that people are purely motivated by self interest. The premise and conclusion is spelled out quite plainly.

Matt Yglesias is claiming that Americans underestimate the wealth of the poor and overestimate the wealth of the poor. He concludes means they underestimate the needs of the poor.

I think you are making the assumption that what is being promoted is anti-wealthy as opposed to pro-poor. I think it's probably safe to assume the authors consider themselves in the latter.

Re: Americans Are Horribly Misinformed About Who Has Money

#135
post #6

I wouldn't be surprised if most respondents are answering as if the question were about income rather than wealth.

I don't expect the same graphs for income to be qualitatively different. The point that people vastly overestimate the prosperity of the lower income classes remains standing.

Re: Americans Are Horribly Misinformed About Who Has Money

#136
post #27

I'd like to see that graph broken down between people who think that wealth is a zero sum thing that can be represented as a pie (as shown) vs those who know it isn't. That is, people who think that if I have a dollar, then they can't also have that same dollar at the same time.

I remember this from Hackers and Painters. Money is a zero-sum game, wealth is not. So yes, I can't have the same dollar that you have.

I get a dollar, put it in the bank, which lends it to your company, which pays it to you.

It's sitting there on both your and my bank statement. We both have it at the same time.

Re: Americans Are Horribly Misinformed About Who Has Money

#137
post #6

I wouldn't be surprised if most respondents are answering as if the question were about income rather than wealth.

The paper says that they addressed that: "We ensured that all respondents had the same working definition of wealth by requiring them to read the following before beginning the survey: “Wealth, also known as net worth, is defined as the total value of everything someone owns minus any debt that he or she owes. A person's net worth includes his or her bank account savings plus the value of other things such as propert…

Requiring people to read the definition doesn't guarantee that they will understand it.

Re: Americans Are Horribly Misinformed About Who Has Money

#138
post #20
post #6

I wouldn't be surprised if most respondents are answering as if the question were about income rather than wealth.

The other thing is that the bottom folks aren't as "needy" as folks were in, say, the great depression. - I.e. "no one starves in america" and most people know this: so while the distribution in wealth is extreme, the distribution in QUALITY OF LIFE is less extreme. - This biases people's view and makes them feel that generally, for most americans, things are okay. This is all true of course: except that the worry ab…

No one is starving in America? It's people with your callous ignorance that are allowing things to get so awful, I take it you have no idea what is going with the food pantries in your city.

Re: Americans Are Horribly Misinformed About Who Has Money

#139
post #114
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We engineers live in an information economy. Many, if not most Americans do not (pardon my lack of statistics). They work in service jobs that will be trivially automatable in our lifetimes. Wealthy people will actually own the means of production in a very meaningful way, and those that aren't equipped by their genes, upbringing, or education to participate in the information economy will be unable to earn an income…

Many, if not most Americans do not (pardon my lack of statistics). They work in service jobs that will be trivially automatable in our lifetimes. Most jobs that truly are "trivially automatable" have already been automatized. I think it's extremely unlikely that most or nearly most of Americans' jobs can be replaced by computers in our lifetimes, barring something like the Singularity happening (which I'm not holding…

For what it is worth, Marx spoke of the expenditure of "nerves and brains" as well as simple physical labor. As for the means of production, the game has clearly changed in our sector, where the most important tool has come down so far in price. But still, there has been no complete transformation. For example, the startup I work at needs every scrap of capital it has, as servers and bandwidth are not cheap. Neither is the feeding and housing of all the engineers, and the sales team... You can wave your hands about the ready availability of capital, but generally speaking, it will be in the hands of others, available for use only at their whim. Young people with no dependents and some bravery and disregard for their health can build an idea on a shoe string budget, but there is still usually a large gap between the product of this kind of endeavour and a self sustaining business. For the vast majority of software developers particularly those with a family to raise, the deal will be the same as it is for anyone else. Freely barter your skills and labor with those who would employ it - the holders of capital. And surely enough, the profits from these labors will accumulate with these same people, those who hold the capital. The trade off is sustenance, "security", in exchange for all profit.

If you think capital itself is a virtue that is entitled to the profits of all labor, then I suppose you are in turn entitled to hold that opinion. So long as the lives of those who are in thrall to capital have a "reasonable quality of life", yes? I won't even go down the road of opportunity inequality here, but I will just say I disagree with how readily you discount environmental factors in the development of people, and how readily you discount the influence of privilege.

Re: Americans Are Horribly Misinformed About Who Has Money

#140
post #117
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who cares who owns what, as long as it isn't stolen from others, indeed. But there are conflicting opinions about how predatory the current economic system is. How much wealth is stolen? It's not easy to answer unless you are an ideological zealot.

What are you talking about? It's illegal to steal money from other people, barring taxes -- so other than taxes, none of it is stolen. The only economic system that is not predatory is a free market, which is based on voluntary trade for mutual benefit; any other economic system involves coersion, which is required for something to be predatory. In the current economic system of the civilized world, government holds…

They (the most wealthy) are only prey by your logic if they have no influence on the government. I would suggest that they have disproportionate influence, in many cases. I think the perceptions raised by the OP support that suggestion, even if you only taking the aspirational voting into account and not economic leverage influence.
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