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FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

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Re: FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

#121
post #98
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But also, no-one understands percentages. WaPo should really present this information as a probability tree or an icon array chart.

I'm not sure I can follow your thinking when you say that a probability tree is easier to understand than a percentage. Has this been broadly scientifically understood? Is this something you have found within your field of work?

NICE, Cochrane, and the English NHS recommend talking about natural frequencies and not percentages. They also say that if you have to use percentages you should use absolute numbers, not relative numbers.

Take something really simple about percentages. What does 0.1% mean? Only 1 in 4 people know this means "1 in 1000".

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3310025/

> Gigerenzer et al show how only 25% of the general population could correctly identify 1 in 1000 as being the equivalent of 0.1%.

Take something a little bit more complex, such as the relative increase in risk vs the actual total risk. We know that most people do not understand what a 75% increase in risk means in real terms. But most people do understand a simpler explanation: of people who don't eat $THING we'd expect to see 1 person out of 1000 people over ten years developing a disease, but if 1000 people all eat $THING every day over ten years we'd expect to see about 2 people developing the disease.

See also cancer screening: (This is a good useful link that rattles through most of what I'd want to say) https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng34/evidence/expert-paper-...

“If you participate in breast screening, you will reduce your chances of dying from breast cancer in the next 10 years by 24%” versus

“If you participate in breast screening, you will reduce your chances of dying from breast cancer in the next 10 years from 37 in 10,000 to 28 in 10,000”

BMJ has more about relative vs absolute risk: https://bestpractice.bmj.com/info/toolkit/practise-ebm/under...

Here's a final example. For some time we knew members of the public couldn't do this, but we thought healthcare professionals could. Turns out that they couldn't do it either. Both groups find it much easier if you convert this into natural numbers and probability trees.

"A machine has been invented to scan a population for a disease. The machine is good but not perfect. If you have the disease there is a 90% chance it will return positive. If you do not have the disease there is a 1% chance it will return positive. About 1% of the population have the disease. Mr Smith is tested, and the test comes back positive. What's the chance Mr Smith actually has the disease?"

(This is from "Reckoning with Risk" by Gerd Gigerenzer).

Most people cannot get the right answer from this question.

If you reword the question they can.

"Think of a group of 100 people. 1 of them has a disease. The entire group is screened. The one person who has the disease tests positive. Of the 99 people who don't have the disease one person will also test positive. How many people of those who test positive have the disease?"

You can also show this as a probability tree. https://imgur.com/a/JWVQRxI

Two books I recommend are "Reckoning With Risk" and "Risk Savvy", both by Gigerenzer.

Re: FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

#122
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what happens if we take a square shot of a face, then use something like the deep fakes to generate different predicted views and then feed those in to the original system.

You get Omphaloskepsis.

Is this really a thing? Man, you learn something every day... I am not sure I needed to know about this though :/

Re: FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

#124
post #106

This line caught my attention: > The FBI said its system is 86 percent accurate at finding the right person if a search is able to generate a list of 50 possible matches, according to the GAO. But the FBI has not tested its system’s accuracy under conditions that are closer to normal, such as when a facial search returns only a few possible matches. What the GAO study[1] actually said: > However, we found that the te…

Ugh, this is the worst part about this mess IMHO. U.S. law enforcement has time and time again shown that they are more than willing to argue in bad faith about statistics. This is going to turn out no different than fishing expeditions based on partial DNA matches where the prosecution predictably finds some 1/100,000 match after they search a database of 250,000 people and use that as some cornerstone of "obvious g…

I've worked in DNA forensics/DNA databasing/LEO IT for about 10 years. I have never heard of DNA evidence with a statistical likelihood of 1/100,000 being presented in court. It is true that all evidentiary DNA is presented in a statistical manner, but the statistical thresholds are far higher than 1/10x the amount of people on earth. A professional accredited DNA forensics laboratory would never publish or release a report with shoddy statistics like that. If attempted it would ruin careers and shut down a lab, today in 2019. We also work on OLD exoneration cases.

Maybe prior to the early 90's when the technology and chemistries were still kinda crude and not every lab could afford accreditation, but definitely not in the US in the past 10 years.

To be clear I am not arguing about the philosophy of if it's ethical to use DNA databases or facial recognition from driver's license databases. I'm saying comparing the use of DNA evidence to using facial recognition on a driver's license database doesn't make sense.

Re: FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if the federal government comes after you, they are doing so with tanks and helicopters What is that supposed to do against the domestic population? Would they use their tanks and planes to blow up their own bridges and cities? Those are weapons used to claim territory from other governments. They're not very useful in a guerilla war where you don't even know who the enemy is. > Vietnam is not a good analogy. Your…

> What is that supposed to do against the domestic population? Would they use their tanks and planes to blow up their own bridges and cities? To fight an insurrection of its own populace? This is what is being described. This has precedent. See Tianamen, Soviet Union sending the tanks to its satellite republics, the Turkey failed coup. The only time the federal government can be stopped is to wait 4 years and electin…

> To fight an insurrection of its own populace?

Right, so the government has all the tanks and bombs they need to blow up their own bridges and structures.

Insurgencies don't have separate infrastructure. They use yours. Blowing it up hurts you more than it hurts them.

> This has precedent. See Tianamen, Soviet Union sending the tanks to its satellite republics, the Turkey failed coup.

Rolling in tanks is purely an intimidation tactic. They're designed to be hard targets that can destroy hard targets, but insurgents don't have hard targets. They use secrecy rather than fortification. To kill them with a tank you would have to know where they are, but if you knew where they were then you could go arrest them rather than doing anything whatsoever with a tank.

And even the intimidation value can be one hell of a footgun. Everybody has seen the photos from Tienanmen square of the man standing in the way of the tanks. That kind of iconic imagery is a massive fiasco for government and a major PR win for the opposition.

> The only time the federal government can be stopped is to wait 4 years and electing a new president.

It's not just about overthrowing the government. It's about making oppressive policies more difficult to implement.

It makes it more dangerous for corrupt police to sneak around like criminals without announcing themselves or outright lynch people in the streets, because it leaves people more ability to defend themselves against petty local tyranny as well.

Also notice that there is a large racial disparity in who gun control laws restrict from having firearms.

> Allowing individuals to own AR-15 has no bearing on 'freedom' from federal attacks.

In the case of an outright insurgency it's not about defense, it's about offense. It's about capturing soft targets for their resources. Twenty guys with rifles may not be able to take on an army base, but they can take on car dealerships and hardware stores and chemical plants and then drive off with their stuff.

And the obsession with the AR-15 is wholly misplaced. It's used by some bad people because it's used by a lot of people in general. It's popular. That doesn't make it different in any meaningful way from most other rifles, and the attempts to distinguish it immediately devolve into cosmetic differences like whether it has a pistol grip or certain types of mounts for ancillary equipment.

Re: FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

#126
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What would these 'hate speech' laws ban exactly? Is it not authoritarianism if it's Our Guys? You can classify anything as hate speech. Propose a restrictive immigration policy? That's hate speech against immigrant populations, an attack on their economic opportunity. Propose a permissive immigration policy? Hate speech against the native population, an attack on their cultural survival. Anything that affects anyon…

> Is it not authoritarianism if it's Our Guys? Isn't this the argument that the concentration camps being run to detain refugees and separate their families aren't authoritarian because the government and their media allies say so? The problem with the 2nd amendment approach is that a lot of the militia types are quite in favour of authoritarianism so long as it hits people they don't like.

> Isn't this the argument that the concentration camps being run to detain refugees and separate their families aren't authoritarian because the government and their media allies say so?

Only if you're the government and their media allies.

Anything that puts people in cages is authoritarian. You can argue that sometimes it's worth the cost, but then you're arguing that sometimes authoritarianism is worth the cost. And generally speaking it isn't and we should have a high bar for all imprisonment.

(Though the immigration case is somewhat confounded if being in the cage is only an optional alternative to being immediately delivered out of the country and released there pending an immigration status decision.)

> The problem with the 2nd amendment approach is that a lot of the militia types are quite in favour of authoritarianism so long as it hits people they don't like.

So what's stopping the people who don't like that form of authoritarianism from taking advantage of the 2nd amendment themselves?

Re: FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

#127
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a reason Kent State went down the way it did, and also why there's no US version of Tiananmen square. A radioactive crater isn't much of an economy, and the armed forces are made up of, well, you know, people who like most folk, don't enjoy shooting at people much like them. The 2nd Amendment doesn't grant a right to bear arms - it prohibits the Government from restricting the right.

How about Wounded Knee?

It was real unfortunate that most of the Native Americans had already been disarmed, otherwise it would have probably played out very differently. It's definitely a dark stain on the US.

Re: FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is that supposed to do against the domestic population? Would they use their tanks and planes to blow up their own bridges and cities? To fight an insurrection of its own populace? This is what is being described. This has precedent. See Tianamen, Soviet Union sending the tanks to its satellite republics, the Turkey failed coup. The only time the federal government can be stopped is to wait 4 years and electin…

> To fight an insurrection of its own populace? Right, so the government has all the tanks and bombs they need to blow up their own bridges and structures. Insurgencies don't have separate infrastructure. They use yours. Blowing it up hurts you more than it hurts them. > This has precedent. See Tianamen, Soviet Union sending the tanks to its satellite republics, the Turkey failed coup. Rolling in tanks is purely an i…

> Twenty guys with rifles may not be able to take on an army base, but they can take on car dealerships and hardware stores and chemical plants and then drive off with their stuff.

Isn't this coming back to your point? If you are fighting an insurrection, and start acquiring resources by force, you are losing the will of the people. At some point, your insurrection is just thuggery, returning to the point that guns only benifit criminals.

> It makes it more dangerous for corrupt police to sneak around like criminals without announcing themselves or outright lynch people in the streets, because it leaves people more ability to defend themselves against petty local tyranny as well.

History shows the police murdering people in the street because they happen to have guns. But since they fire dozens of shots against sleeping targets, having guns for defence never helps, and gets you branded as cop killer.

> And the obsession with the AR-15 is wholly misplaced. It's used by some bad people because it's used by a lot of people in general. It's popular.

Completely agree, it's just an example. A gun is a gun.

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