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Nerve transfer restores hand function, elbow extension in paralyzed patients

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Re: Nerve transfer restores hand function, elbow extension in paralyzed patients

#51

Frankly, as somebody with 2 rare autoimmune nerve diseases (affecting my peripheral nervous system), who is disabled, I am not excited about this news. Do they have any sort of residual neuropathic pain, either from their injury or the procedure? What sort of functional limitations do they have? Did their autonomic dysfunction improve (extremely unlikely to improve with a nerve transfer procedure, as described above)…

I absolutely agree that lots of 'inspiring' disability coverage seems hostile and dehumanizing, celebrating changes that make disability invisible rather than those that help people. But a lot of social-model reactions to that actually give me the same feeling of being more worried about social perceptions than individual well-being. I'm sure this is influenced by my personal and first-hand experiences, which have mo…

I definitely agree with you. Thank you for taking a look at this objectively. I really do appreciate it.

A lot of this stuff is frustrating to me. I live with 2 rare autoimmune neurological diseases, with one of them being very rare, which changes the rules of the game, almost completely. I really should not be alive and I constantly worry about making a bad move medically because my care is complex. Even turning 30 felt like a milestone for me. I almost constantly have to worry about access to care, too, which is why I became a European Union citizen, in addition to being American. But, it is not due to typical things that people worry about like having access to insurance or paying for it. It basically is for logistical reasons.

My training is in electrical engineering. From my standpoint, I can tell the difference between a gimmicky medical device and something that is promising. With surgeries, I would definitely say to a lesser degree, but I am always skeptical about the consequences. I also do not know how things typically play out long-term, especially living with rare diseases. I am always skeptical in general, and for good reasons. I have always been careful about what moves I make medically. I am also extremely stubborn, and perhaps that is why I am still alive.

Either way, medicine in the past 10 years or so has started to change profoundly. I do think promising things will occur, perhaps on a timeline even. However, access to things, such as in the US, will be of a different story. That is another reason why stories like this bother me, even though it is far from happening logistically, in this case.

Re: Nerve transfer restores hand function, elbow extension in paralyzed patients

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might have been a neuragen tube. I had one of these placed in my hand after I severed the nerves in one of my fingers... It took about 1 year before I regained any feeling and 2 before I regained maximum nerve use. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2920394/

Roughly how close was max nerve use to how it was before the accident? 60%? 80%?

It's hard to gauge, but...

* Before the accident the nerve was 100% (undamaged)

* Immediately after it was 0% (could not feel anything - including the sensation of heat)

* 1 year after ~20% (could feel the sensation of heat and firm presses)

* 2 years to now ~70% (could feel heat and soft presses)

I still only type with 7 of 8 fingers on the keyboard because I have a hard time determining the location of that one finger.

Re: Nerve transfer restores hand function, elbow extension in paralyzed patients

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how similar that is to the effect of the "backwards bike" shown in "Smarter every day": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0 It seems like there's a very deep idea of how a bike should work and instead of learning the new behaviour bit by bit the new idea just "clicks" at some point. I've heard people with up/down flipped goggles also say it's quite sudden change. I'm curious if it's similar for recon…

That instant clicking is exactly how it feels (for me at least) learning to play music. I'll practice the same thing over and over, for an hour maybe. It takes so much brain power, it feels weird, sometimes it's good, mostly it's not. Then stop, go to sleep, come back tomorrow, and 25% of the time it'll just be there with no thought or effort required whatsoever.

This! This is so hard to explain to others who are trying to get into learning a new instrument. The most frustrating part is that rarely will I see the results of my practice on the day of practice, especially for tricky sections, which can make the sessions feel kinda useless. Then I'll come back a day or two later and suddenly my hands know what to do. "Okay let's start at marker B and... oh, okay!"

The hard part then, of course, is letting them get on with it, and only correcting actual mistakes. If I try to analyze what they're doing the whole thing kinda falls apart. That moment when I can switch from focusing on notes and rhythm to ... more like conducting from afar is the moment when a piece really starts to feel playable. But getting there is always a challenge, and pushing through that challenge is the toughest part.

It's really kinda fun to go back to a piece that I used to know really well and dust off the cobwebs. "Now how did this section go? .. I have no idea what chord that was. Hrm... maybe if I start from a phrase earlier and play into it... oh... oh that's how it went!"

Re: Nerve transfer restores hand function, elbow extension in paralyzed patients

#54

Whenever I see a post like this I am struck by the huge disparity in our grasp of (and ability to treat) different types of human ailments. Are you a tetraplegic? Don't worry, we will just literally rewire your nervous system to give you functioning limbs again. Do you have tiny tumor in your pancreas? Sorry, you won't know about it for a while, and when you do your only recourse is for a surgeon to cut out half of y…

The autonomic dysfunction (including the super-horrible autonomic dysreflexia events) would still occur in higher level spinal cord injuries, including in people with higher level paraplegia and more commonly in quadraplegia, in the case of nerve transfer. It is not as good as it sounds, as autonomic dysreflexia occurs in up to 90% of people with injures above T6, to varying degrees. The autonomic ganglia (which runs…

Is this the phenomenon that paralyzed athletes exploit to increase performance?

Re: Nerve transfer restores hand function, elbow extension in paralyzed patients

#55

Whenever I see a post like this I am struck by the huge disparity in our grasp of (and ability to treat) different types of human ailments. Are you a tetraplegic? Don't worry, we will just literally rewire your nervous system to give you functioning limbs again. Do you have tiny tumor in your pancreas? Sorry, you won't know about it for a while, and when you do your only recourse is for a surgeon to cut out half of y…

>Are you a tetraplegic? Don't worry, we will just literally rewire your nervous system to give you functioning limbs again. Do you have tiny tumor in your pancreas?

I find it humorous that you use paralysis as the 'don't worry' disease -- it's (quite literally) one of the least treatable conditions we know of, while simultaneously being one of the oldest recorded.

I get the comparison that you're trying to create, but paralysis (more specifically paralysis caused by nerve damage) is by no means a closed case -- and virtually no one (compared to the suffering population) has access to treatment options that change quality of life by any significant means.

Aside from those qualms I mentioned, I think that comparing a quickly-fatal disease (pancreatic cancer) with a set of conditions that shortens lifespan and decreases quality of life (tetraplegia) , but is generally a maintainable condition if acute treatment is survived, is a comparison built upon weak premises.

disclosure : I have a spinal cord injury at my C5 vertebrae. In Europe i'm a tetraplegic, in the United States i'm a quadriplegic, but by whichever lingo you want to go by i'm effectively uncured. My condition has remained unchanged since my injury -- so I definitely have 'skin in the game' on this topic.

'Don't worry.. .. give you functioning limbs again.' would be seen by quite a few other paralyzed folks I know to be pretty offensive. I'm thick skinned, but many others aren't. The immobility granted by a nerve injury is just one of many terrible experiences a sufferer of such a condition may go through.

In other words: "Ignore the loss of bladder and bowel control, infertility and ED, the triggering of auto-immune diseases, breathing irregularity, heart arrhythmia, generally much reduced life-span, and the necessity for round-the-clock nursing care, here's an arm back!" is not an effective enough treatment for which we can say 'Don't worry' yet.

I do have hope -- but the techie in me has more faith in the pursuit of BCI/Spinal-cord-skipping rather than biological treatments.

Re: Nerve transfer restores hand function, elbow extension in paralyzed patients

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The autonomic dysfunction (including the super-horrible autonomic dysreflexia events) would still occur in higher level spinal cord injuries, including in people with higher level paraplegia and more commonly in quadraplegia, in the case of nerve transfer. It is not as good as it sounds, as autonomic dysreflexia occurs in up to 90% of people with injures above T6, to varying degrees. The autonomic ganglia (which runs…

Is this the phenomenon that paralyzed athletes exploit to increase performance?

Yes.

I had a friend who broke his toes repeatedly to do so before track events. I had another friend in physical rehab that used to purposely sit on his own testicles to trigger an AD fit for the same purpose.

It's a pretty terrible feeling, but I guess if there is a strong enough desire to win you can put yourself through whatever you need to. I've gone through a lot of shit medically, but AD and the accompanying loss of blood pressure and uptick in heart-rate is one of the closest to "feeling like i'm going to die" i've ever been.

Re: Nerve transfer restores hand function, elbow extension in paralyzed patients

#57
post #42
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I'm sorry, but what follows is likely a bad analogy…) I imagine this is similar to the difference between fixing a low-level bug (e.g. a kernel or CPU bug) and a bug in a relatively high-level application.

To kernel or app developer? :)

Imagine that if the system ever goes down, it's down for good. So any kernel patches have to be made while it's live.

Re: Nerve transfer restores hand function, elbow extension in paralyzed patients

#58
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this the phenomenon that paralyzed athletes exploit to increase performance?

Yes. I had a friend who broke his toes repeatedly to do so before track events. I had another friend in physical rehab that used to purposely sit on his own testicles to trigger an AD fit for the same purpose. It's a pretty terrible feeling, but I guess if there is a strong enough desire to win you can put yourself through whatever you need to. I've gone through a lot of shit medically, but AD and the accompanying lo…

Agreed. Same here.

Re: Nerve transfer restores hand function, elbow extension in paralyzed patients

#59
post #55

Whenever I see a post like this I am struck by the huge disparity in our grasp of (and ability to treat) different types of human ailments. Are you a tetraplegic? Don't worry, we will just literally rewire your nervous system to give you functioning limbs again. Do you have tiny tumor in your pancreas? Sorry, you won't know about it for a while, and when you do your only recourse is for a surgeon to cut out half of y…

>Are you a tetraplegic? Don't worry, we will just literally rewire your nervous system to give you functioning limbs again. Do you have tiny tumor in your pancreas? I find it humorous that you use paralysis as the 'don't worry' disease -- it's (quite literally) one of the least treatable conditions we know of, while simultaneously being one of the oldest recorded. I get the comparison that you're trying to create, bu…

Thank you for covering this issue properly. I cannot thank you enough. As a disabled individual, I appreciate you telling it for what it actually is here. That can be hard to do.

Re: Nerve transfer restores hand function, elbow extension in paralyzed patients

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely agree that lots of 'inspiring' disability coverage seems hostile and dehumanizing, celebrating changes that make disability invisible rather than those that help people. But a lot of social-model reactions to that actually give me the same feeling of being more worried about social perceptions than individual well-being. I'm sure this is influenced by my personal and first-hand experiences, which have mo…

I definitely agree with you. Thank you for taking a look at this objectively. I really do appreciate it. A lot of this stuff is frustrating to me. I live with 2 rare autoimmune neurological diseases, with one of them being very rare, which changes the rules of the game, almost completely. I really should not be alive and I constantly worry about making a bad move medically because my care is complex. Even turning 30…

Thank you, this makes a lot of sense and it's really interesting to hear.

It's depressing how often 'disability' gets reduced to a single quality, as though changes have a standard effect on disabled people as a group. Our different experiences seem like a great demonstration of that. On one hand, complex care that makes "brilliant" new solutions unlikely to do anything, and a distraction from access and support to existing care. On the other, issues so straightfoward that access to care and social support are largely meaningless - but also leaves me with an eye on shiny new advances because existing treatments start and stop at pain relief.

As an aside, I really appreciate the point about relevant training - I do worry that there's a "Gellman amnesia" issue here where I'm acutely aware that I should be skeptical of motorized medical devices or brain-training games, but don't have an adequate skepticism about drugs or surgery. I think medical devices really are singularly prone to ludicrous overpromising, but it's hard to know how much of my doubt should extend to other topics.

I wish you well, and I hope the mundane business of living and getting care goes as well as possible. There's a lot of interesting change on the horizon, but people shouldn't let it overshadow improving lives however we can today.

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