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When bills pile up, young people turn to strangers on Venmo

latimes.com

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Re: When bills pile up, young people turn to strangers on Venmo

#61

Post by empath75 »

DiffEq wrote: post #51
rangeofmotion wrote: post #41

What I don't understand is why people don't band together and simply refuse, collectively, to pay bills that are well known in the culture to be unreasonable. In particular, student loans. But also a few other things. My god, I know so many people who are struggling that it seems like everyone is struggling. I know people making six figures who are worried about losing their homes. In fact, I've known so many people…

Perhaps it could start with, yeah I don't need that unreasonable brand new car with a 72 month payment plan, or I can take these college courses for 1/10 the cost at a community college rather than a more unreasonable expensive school, or I don't need that unreasonable 5500 square foot McMansion in that fancy neighborhood, or I don't need that unreasonable 10th pair of jeans, that unreasonable new iphone, etc. People…

The people loaning them money bear some responsibility, also. If it’s obvious to you that it’s a bad loan it should be even more obvious to the bank, but they shield themselves from their poor decision making by wrapping the debt into instruments that they unload onto some other poor sucker.

Re: When bills pile up, young people turn to strangers on Venmo

#62

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

tomjakubowski wrote: post #21
sp332 wrote: post #15

"millennial culture is just passing around the same $20 to whoever needs it at the time forever." I see this a lot on my Twitter feed. Recently, a guy with metabolic issues and chronic pain (whose own GoFundMe was "trending" for a while) is setting up a charity livestream for someone else's surgery. https://twitter.com/docsquiddy/status/1148022827917938695

That reminds me of a great anecdote from Graeber's Debt: "The anthropologist Keith Hart once told me a story about his brother, who in the '50s was a British soldier stationed in Hong Kong. Soldiers used to pay their bar tabs by writing checks on accounts back in England. Local merchants would often simply endorse them over to each other and pass them around as currency: once, he saw one of his own checks, written si…

I forget what book I read it in, but there was a story about Moshe Dayan, the Israeli military leader.

He apparently liked to shop for stuff in the various bazaars. He would pay for his purchase by check. The seller, instead of cashing the check, would frame it, and sell it to tourists as an authentic check with Moshe Dayan's signature for much higher than the value of the check.

This resulted in a win-win situation. Moshe Dayan never had to actually pay for his purchases, the seller made far more money than the actual check, and the tourist got to have an authentic check with Moshe Dayan's signature to hang up in their home as a conversation piece.

Re: When bills pile up, young people turn to strangers on Venmo

#63

Post by hammock »

sp332 wrote: post #15

"millennial culture is just passing around the same $20 to whoever needs it at the time forever." I see this a lot on my Twitter feed. Recently, a guy with metabolic issues and chronic pain (whose own GoFundMe was "trending" for a while) is setting up a charity livestream for someone else's surgery. https://twitter.com/docsquiddy/status/1148022827917938695

Latin Americans have been doing this for a long time:

>A tanda is formed between ten friends and family. Each member gives $100 USD every two weeks to the group's organizer. At the end of the month, one participant gets the "pot", $2000. This continues until each member has received the pot.[4]

>Tandas are formed for many reasons, but often because at least one member is in need of money to pay a debt right away, or an emergency arises. But they can also be formed with no pressing financial obligations.

>Among Mexicans, these forms of informal savings associations play an important role sustaining the livelihood of many people living in both Mexico and the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanda_(informal_loan_club)

Re: When bills pile up, young people turn to strangers on Venmo

#64

Post by rangeofmotion »

DiffEq wrote: post #51
rangeofmotion wrote: post #41

What I don't understand is why people don't band together and simply refuse, collectively, to pay bills that are well known in the culture to be unreasonable. In particular, student loans. But also a few other things. My god, I know so many people who are struggling that it seems like everyone is struggling. I know people making six figures who are worried about losing their homes. In fact, I've known so many people…

Perhaps it could start with, yeah I don't need that unreasonable brand new car with a 72 month payment plan, or I can take these college courses for 1/10 the cost at a community college rather than a more unreasonable expensive school, or I don't need that unreasonable 5500 square foot McMansion in that fancy neighborhood, or I don't need that unreasonable 10th pair of jeans, that unreasonable new iphone, etc. People…

I can understand this sentiment. And it certainly applies to some people. But honestly I don't think the majority of people struggling are driving fancy cars or living in McMansions. Most of the people I personally know (which is a lot of people) drive an average car, live in an average home or condo, and don't live lavish lives. Most are just saddled with some combination of common factors like high cost of housing, student loans, unexpected medical bills, etc. The majority of people are just trying to live average lives but are constantly having to walk a tightrope for just that.

Re: When bills pile up, young people turn to strangers on Venmo

#65

Post by neetdeth »

shanemhansen wrote: post #54
hosh wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The larger themes are: 1. Community has always supported people in times of need, more so than government services. 2. The Internet had created distance amount community members 3. Use of the Internet for funds like this (or for Gofundme, etc.) is bringing that back, though with strangers 4. Shifting attitudes and values on whether this is acceptable 5. One Millennial is now setting aside funds for direct contributio…

> Community has always supported people in times of need Sure, if you are the right gender, race, and religion.

The third definition of community from dictionary.com:

a social, religious, occupational, or other group sharing common characteristics or interests and perceived or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists

A prerequisite for finding community support is to be a member of one. There are many communities. The commonality and social bonds between members form the basis of trust and the expectation of reciprocity.

When people perceive that their resources are simply being expropriated to benefit people they have nothing in common with, may never meet, and certainly cannot expect reciprocal investment from, they tend to withdraw from voluntary participation. Without that participation, communities simply die.

It's true that some communities have a larger pool of resources to share than others. But consider this before you condemn a synagogue for helping out a local Jewish family with money that could have gone to taxes to help someone arguably more in need.

It's sad that not everyone has a home, but the solution is not to demolish the entire block and apportion to each person an equal share of lumber.

Re: When bills pile up, young people turn to strangers on Venmo

#66

Post by AcerbicZero »

kaesar14 wrote: post #56
AlwaysRock wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Student loans are not unreasonable. Rising education costs are unreasonable. But anyone who took on student loans did so willingly.

There are many who would argue that the willingness of a 18 year old to shoulder enormous financial responsibility to gain benefits largely denied to them by the way modern American society is constructed is not a real defense of the reasonableness of student loans.

Sure, but that opens up a lot of other difficult topics, all of which are very nuanced. If we're not going to consider 18 year old's adults, we need to re-visit the age limits on voting, military service, and other large financial contracts.

In the end, it always comes down to (some degree of) personal responsibility. Just because the government (or your job, or your family, or some guy you met on the street) offers you a new and novel way of ruining your life, it doesn't mean you have to take it. If the choice is pay your student loans and keep your credit score, or pay your rent and avoid being homeless, well, that's a terrible choice to have to make, but the answer is obvious, and the manner by which someone ended up in that situation is also pretty obvious.

Re: When bills pile up, young people turn to strangers on Venmo

#67

Post by shados »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #60
shados wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In particular, student loans Only if we're also collectively telling people not to take them in the first place. The current culture telling everyone to go to expensive private colleges, then bitching that they're burdened with loans and not pay them, is pretty toxic. Its should be a multi step thing. - Tell people how bad student loans are and how they shouldn't take them if they don't have a plan to pay them back…

>The current culture telling everyone to go to expensive private colleges "Everyone" doesn't go to expensive private colleges. Of those who continue on from high-school at all, 75% attend a publicly owned institution, usually community college.

I didn't say go to expensive private colleges, I said TELLING people to go to expensive private colleges. And of course, "everyone" is an hyperbole in this context.

Re: When bills pile up, young people turn to strangers on Venmo

#68

Post by yellowapple »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #60
shados wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In particular, student loans Only if we're also collectively telling people not to take them in the first place. The current culture telling everyone to go to expensive private colleges, then bitching that they're burdened with loans and not pay them, is pretty toxic. Its should be a multi step thing. - Tell people how bad student loans are and how they shouldn't take them if they don't have a plan to pay them back…

>The current culture telling everyone to go to expensive private colleges "Everyone" doesn't go to expensive private colleges. Of those who continue on from high-school at all, 75% attend a publicly owned institution, usually community college.

Are state colleges not also publicly owned? Those ain't nearly as affordable as community colleges.

When I was in high school, being railroaded into prioritizing CSU or UC admission requirements over graduation requirements was the norm even for students (like me) who had effectively zero chance of getting into one of those schools immediately after high school (let alone getting a scholarship or meaningful financial aid or any other way to avoid a predatory student loan).

Re: When bills pile up, young people turn to strangers on Venmo

#69

Post by shados »

rangeofmotion wrote: post #58
shados wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In particular, student loans Only if we're also collectively telling people not to take them in the first place. The current culture telling everyone to go to expensive private colleges, then bitching that they're burdened with loans and not pay them, is pretty toxic. Its should be a multi step thing. - Tell people how bad student loans are and how they shouldn't take them if they don't have a plan to pay them back…

I get what you're saying. I agree that college and university should be looked at differently going forward for a lot of people. It's just that there is a problem that exists right this minute, with an entire generation of people who already took the loans, not realizing the outcome they would face. I'm just looking at all the wreckage and sense of instability people have all around me right now, and it seems to make…

Yup. Thats why I think all 3 of my points above need to happen at the same time. Working toward forgiving debts while still handing them out is counter productive.

Only semi related, but I also take issue about how we got there in the first place.

"Lets make college free!" "No, this is AMERICAH!~ People should pay for things!" "Ok, then lets give out loans! Gov will insure them, so its win win! People get to go to college but it doesnt cost anything!" "Ok, lets do that!" "Waaaah! People can't pay back, lets forgive their loan" "Err, wait a minute...didn't we say they were gonna be loan exactly so it wouldn't end up with the gov paying for it?"

Its even worse than if it had just been made free straight up, since infinite loans basically made education prices skyrocket mostly unchecked. This bullshit happens everywhere in the US (see: healthcare). And this is the worse of all world: you have "free market" problems, unbound pricing problems, AND the government picks up the tab. Fail on all counts.

But that's a different issue. For now, yes, lets do something about all the people who are fucked, BUT AT THE SAME TIME lets tackle the root cause.

Re: When bills pile up, young people turn to strangers on Venmo

#70

Post by rangeofmotion »

AcerbicZero wrote: post #66
kaesar14 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many who would argue that the willingness of a 18 year old to shoulder enormous financial responsibility to gain benefits largely denied to them by the way modern American society is constructed is not a real defense of the reasonableness of student loans.

Sure, but that opens up a lot of other difficult topics, all of which are very nuanced. If we're not going to consider 18 year old's adults, we need to re-visit the age limits on voting, military service, and other large financial contracts. In the end, it always comes down to (some degree of) personal responsibility. Just because the government (or your job, or your family, or some guy you met on the street) offers…

But is that the type of society we want? One in which a rather large percentage of the population is dealing with those terrible choices regularly? And the rest of the population says "you should have been smart enough to not fall for it"?

Personal responsibility matters for sure. And to have freedom we have to allow personal responsibility rather than try and protect everyone from everything. But if someone comes up with a clever way to put a massive number of people in debt by leveraging common human failings, to the point that it threatens their ability to have shelter, do we not do something about it rather than allowing that clever someone to just become king (metaphorical)? Not to mention, wouldn't we want to head off both the growing apathy by some and the growing anger by others towards the rest of us lest it eventually threaten the country itself and its character?

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