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Photon Micro GUI

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Re: Photon Micro GUI

#101

Post by mwcampbell »

p0nce wrote: post #93
djowel64 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi I'm Joel, the the author of Photon. Just wondering, do you know any significant (or perhaps even insignificant) VST or AU plugin that uses standard platform widgets? I wonder how that would look like.

I sell plug-ins and I just don't know _any_ of them. And noone asked me for accessibility, zero people.

> And noone asked me for accessibility, zero people.

It's possible that blind DAW users have just gotten tired of trying to advocate for accessibility in plugins. I thought I had a chance on this thread, since I would potentially be reaching several developers, including future plugin developers who haven't yet chosen a toolkit, instead of having to write to one at a time.

Re: Photon Micro GUI

#102

Post by lpellis »

mastry wrote: post #71
mirimir wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, how does one adjust the setting of a knob? Gestures?

A lot of DAWs use these. With the ones I have used you click the knob and then drag (up to turn the knob left, down for right). It's really horrible actually.

I would hope you can also use the mouse wheel by hovering over the knob

Re: Photon Micro GUI

#103

Post by seertaak »

mirimir wrote: post #67
asutekku wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, knobs as shown in the screenshot are afwul in an usability’s point of view (how do i rotate this, how to fine tune the value), but they convey the information in the context of music plugins really well for the person most likely to use them.

Yes, how does one adjust the setting of a knob? Gestures?

Click/touch + drag.

Re: Photon Micro GUI

#104

Post by mwcampbell »

bsder wrote: post #84
mwcampbell wrote: post #70

Please, please, please don’t use a GUI toolkit like this, that draws its own widgets rather than using platform standard ones, when developing a plugin for a digital audio workstation (e.g. VST or Audio Unit), as this author is apparently doing. Unless someone puts in all the extra effort to implement platform-specific accessibility APIs for said toolkit. Inaccessible DAW plugins are a problem for blind musicians and…

> Please, please, please don’t use a GUI toolkit like this, that draws its own widgets rather than using platform standard ones, when developing a plugin for a digital audio workstation (e.g. VST or Audio Unit), as this author is apparently doing. Um, I have normal but aging sight, and I still can't get a DAW that actually scales its widget to something other than 200% (or 150% if I'm reaaaaally lucky). I have no GUI…

> DAWs often operate much more like a game wherein the screen is animated and has 60fps of stuff going on.

This is puzzling to me. Do sighted DAW users really rely on such a high-bandwidth, continuous flow of visual information? What kind of information? Mainly volume meters, or other things as well?

FWIW, I'm just starting to dabble with a DAW myself. But I know that blind people have successfully done all stages of music and other audio production using a DAW. From what I understand, they do it by concentrating solely on the audio itself during real-time playback and recording. But the UI does need to be accessible for non-real-time work, e.g. plugin configuration, switching tracks, switching instruments, or making precise edits.

Re: Photon Micro GUI

#105

Post by homonculus1 »

seertaak wrote: post #103
mirimir wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, how does one adjust the setting of a knob? Gestures?

Click/touch + drag.

Which is awful and anti-intuitive--far worse than merely non-discoverable. It looks like a familiar control system that a hardware synth would have, but it's actually just a skin on a vertical slider: so it not only forces you to learn a different interaction anyway, but on top of that it lies to you about what it's doing!

Skeuomorphism worshippers have a lot of nerve to complain about abstract GUI philosophies when their own cult hasn't eradicated these design atrocities. Gosh, it sure looks pretty though...

Re: Photon Micro GUI

#106

Post by oscii »

homonculus1 wrote: post #105
seertaak wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Click/touch + drag.

Which is awful and anti-intuitive--far worse than merely non-discoverable. It looks like a familiar control system that a hardware synth would have, but it's actually just a skin on a vertical slider: so it not only forces you to learn a different interaction anyway, but on top of that it lies to you about what it's doing! Skeuomorphism worshippers have a lot of nerve to complain about abstract GUI philosophies when…

I think you may have forgotten to add "imho", otherwise the message looks like its telling an indisputable truth. Audio professionals don't complain about skeuomorphism and philosophies and certainly there're no worshippers, as nobody cares about the new fancy names of mainstream visual styles (btw non-skeuomorphic knobs are quite common, e.g. Ableton).

From my own experience, knobs are far superior to sliders in audio applications, as all the adjustments are typically guided by hearing, and sliders' values can jump if you click in a wrong place. This just disturbs the flow. Most of the work with audio software UI is fine tuning parameters, often by a few percent, so relativistic nature of click-drag is perfect for this. Sure, there're relativistic sliders, but they feel rather unintuitive.

Re: Photon Micro GUI

#107

Post by mankeysee »

asutekku wrote: post #57
mankeysee wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mobile and web people are probably triggered at this ui lol

To be fair, knobs as shown in the screenshot are afwul in an usability’s point of view (how do i rotate this, how to fine tune the value), but they convey the information in the context of music plugins really well for the person most likely to use them.

What are knobs used for anyways outside of daws?

Re: Photon Micro GUI

#108

Post by tracker1 »

Crinus wrote: post #96
mwcampbell wrote: post #70

Please, please, please don’t use a GUI toolkit like this, that draws its own widgets rather than using platform standard ones, when developing a plugin for a digital audio workstation (e.g. VST or Audio Unit), as this author is apparently doing. Unless someone puts in all the extra effort to implement platform-specific accessibility APIs for said toolkit. Inaccessible DAW plugins are a problem for blind musicians and…

> what’s more important, code aesthetics or usability? My guess is that the answer to this is similar to "what is more important, developer friendliness or minding resource use for users with less capable computers?" that gave rise to Electron. And i'll also bet that there are way more users that have low end computers than users who rely on OS-supplied usability features.

At least if you're using electron, a11y is pretty much in the box... Electron + React + Material UI is pretty nice all around.

Re: Photon Micro GUI

#109

Post by mirimir »

setr wrote: post #100
royjacobs wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, except taking up much less space.

Which is exactly the purpose of a knob in meatspace too :)

Right. Physically, potentiometers are semicircular sliders.

But another advantage of knobs is the ability to turn them, quickly and yet accurately, with thumb and first finger. Some even have push-pull gear reduction, to go between fast and accurate.

So you'd think that a GUI knob would use some analogous two-finger twisting gesture. With thumb and first finger.

Re: Photon Micro GUI

#110

Post by morganvachon »

djowel64 wrote: post #86
rbanffy wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. Such a shame I need to go into my car to run QNX...

Hi I'm Joel, the the author of Photon. It seems I have to change the name. Bummer :-) Anyway, I didn't know. Thanks for pointing it out.

If you're willing to share, I'm curious how you came up with the name, especially with it being literally one character (a space) different from such an established project from two decades ago.

And kudos to you being willing to change it now that you know. It probably only really affects old OS and embedded nerds like me, and as an amateur musician I do find your project interesting, but I have to admit I got my hopes up that QNX Photon had finally been open sourced, or at least brought up to modern standards with a new release.

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