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Updating our rules against hateful conduct

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31–40 of 89 posts

Re: Updating our rules against hateful conduct

#31

I'm very concerned about loosing the right to attack religion. It's an important discussion to have and for children to see. All religion is foolish, and has to be approached from a reality-based context.

> I'm very concerned about loosing the right to attack religion You aren't losing the right. You may be losing Twitter's active cooperation if the manner in which you do so is unacceptable to Twitter, but you never had a right to Twitter's active participation in your attacks to lose.

You are of course correct in a grand sense, but there's this weird gray area philosophically where someone builds a town square and says "everyone come and talk in my square"...until the hear what you are speaking about!

The problem is likely greater in our corporate/mercantilist system where some state-sponsored and some natural monopolies develop. Totally get and appreciate the private property of the corporation argument...it is their town square after all...but when there is only one that is 'allowed' to succeed, what happens?

This then leads to specific tactical rules we have on the books in the US like FTC and even FCC regs, where some may protest unfair commerce.

IANAL but I can see this is a real mess. Also, what is the ROI for Twitter when it comes to policing this? We know FB has been having problems.

Re: Updating our rules against hateful conduct

#32

I'm very concerned about loosing the right to attack religion. It's an important discussion to have and for children to see. All religion is foolish, and has to be approached from a reality-based context.

The reasonable interpretation is that you can attack religion (as an ideology) but you can not attact religious people based on their religion.

Thats a safe split: ideologies do not have (human) rights anyway...

So e.g. you can freely say that the Bible is stupid but can't say the same thing about its believers.

Re: Updating our rules against hateful conduct

#33
post #19
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entirely possible to criticize without dehumanizing.

That depends entirely on their definition of dehumanizing.

The examples given seem pretty clear - calling people rats, viruses, maggots, etc.

Re: Updating our rules against hateful conduct

#34

Interesting. So criticizing religious positions against abortion, against vaccines, against homosexuality, and in favor of the flat earth will now result in post removal. Assuming this policy is going to be impartially and fairly applied as stated.

> So criticizing religious positions against abortion, against vaccines, against homosexuality, and in favor of the flat earth will now result in post removal.

I'm pretty sure you can criticize all of those positions without dehumanizing people on the basis of religion, so that conclusion seems unwarranted, and out of line with the examples of the kinds of posts that would be removed by the policy.

Re: Updating our rules against hateful conduct

#36

Does this mean that Swiftian satire such as South Park's episode making fun of prominent Scientologists is now unfit for Twitter?

I don't believe it would be affected -- as I recall, that episode mocks the religion and its members, but doesn't dehumanize them.

What exactly does "dehumanization" mean?

Re: Updating our rules against hateful conduct

#37
post #32

I'm very concerned about loosing the right to attack religion. It's an important discussion to have and for children to see. All religion is foolish, and has to be approached from a reality-based context.

The reasonable interpretation is that you can attack religion (as an ideology) but you can not attact religious people based on their religion. Thats a safe split: ideologies do not have (human) rights anyway... So e.g. you can freely say that the Bible is stupid but can't say the same thing about its believers.

> So e.g. you can freely say that the Bible is stupid but can't say the same thing about its believers.

From the examples they give, I think you can still call them stupid. (After all, being stupid is very much part of the human condition. It's hardly a dehumanizing descriptor.) You just can't call them rats, maggots, viruses, etc. and advocate for their extermination/removal.

Re: Updating our rules against hateful conduct

#38
post #24

I'm very concerned about loosing the right to attack religion. It's an important discussion to have and for children to see. All religion is foolish, and has to be approached from a reality-based context.

This crosses into religious flamewar. That's not ok on HN; please don't do it here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Dang, respectfully disagree as this is a meta-comment on the concept, not targeting any specific religion. However you are welcome to delete if you feel it best.

Re: Updating our rules against hateful conduct

#39

What if someone's holy book contains text that dehumanizes people on the basis of religion?

Bingo. In that case you have to pick a winner and loser. Then you suppress the loser and promote the winner.

Which is the whole point.

These issues of free speech have been around for a very long time, especially with regards to religious speech, which is at the bedrock of free speech, and the Western liberal tradition espouses free speech principles not because it didn't realize someone might get offended, but because it's better than the option of having powerful people/institutions pick winners and losers and decide what is acceptable to say.

Under current rules, if enforced across the board, a modern Martin Luther's 95 tweet stream would be banned because it hurt someone's feelings or criticized their religion. Exposes of Jehovah's Witnesses would be banned. Atheist tracts would be banned. The whole system is unworkable, which is why it wont work -- it wont be enforced across the board. What will happen is that Twitter will adopt de-facto 'protected religions' that cannot be criticized -- say Islam -- and then it will pick the losers -- say Christianity.

Re: Updating our rules against hateful conduct

#40

What if someone's holy book contains text that dehumanizes people on the basis of religion?

Criticizing a religion is not the same thing as dehumanizing its followers.

Dehumanization is a defense mechanism which helps us avoid feeling the pain of realizing that humans sometimes do (subjectively) abhorrent things. It's seductive to define such people outside the bounds of humanity as it allows us to excuse treating them poorly. It is nearly always a mistake to do so, because people are, in fact, people.

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