Apple kills the non-Touch Bar MacBook Pro • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple kills the non-Touch Bar MacBook Pro

#261

Post by mamon » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 7:12 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #184

Eric_WVGG wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good point, and I did do exactly that in the pre-Touch Bar days as I had no use for most of the "media keys." What the Touch Bar gives me is context sensitivity, different suites of commands on a per-app basis. Evidently I'm just lacking the mental agility of remembering that F2 is "open responsive desktop mode" in Safari and "clean build cache" in Xcode. As for the arguments of touch-typists here, I'm a tou…

But why encourage people to look down when typing anything? Basically everyone learns to type without looking at some point which is the ideal zone you want users in (a one-to-one connection with the machine, eyes straight, hands down). Context switching the UI in a computer interface, often randomly depending on the app, while requiring the user to look down to use it is terrible UX. This whole technology screams ‘b…

Also, Touch Bar is located above keyboard, so your own hands obscure the view. It would make much more sense to put lcd display in place of touchpad, like Razer did in their concept laptop[1], or Asus in theirs [2].

[1] https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/1/9/16866206/ra...

[2] https://www.engadget.com/2018/06/05/asus-zenbook-pro-15-scre...

Re: Apple kills the non-Touch Bar MacBook Pro

#262

Post by brailsafe » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 7:12 PM UTC

I have one the 13" non-touchbar, and am dissatisfied for other reasons, but actually kind of like the idea of it existing. I personally don't think I'd do anything with it, but as a developer, it seems neat to have another platform—or aspect of a platform—to build on and extend your apps into. Much like VSCode having extensions that allow you to order pizza while you're coding, the idea of it seems like something need to write code for.

Re: Apple kills the non-Touch Bar MacBook Pro

#263

Post by 0xd171 » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 7:12 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #255

erikpukinskis wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just occurred to me that the situation with the Touch Bar is similar to what Apple has done with 3D Touch... it seems like Apple is making a bet that more complicated input devices are better, which is a total about face from their past positions. Notably the 1-button mouse, and the original buttonless iPhone. I think it's a bad call. To me, these input devices create a lot of confusion for very little benefit. I…

> it seems like Apple is making a bet that more complicated input devices are better, which is a total about face from their past positions. Swapping hardware buttons for touchscreen controls has been a huge success for Apple for over a decade, with the iPhone, iPod Touch, iPad, even the Apple Watch. The Touchbar is just another step down that path. It's arguable whether a fixed set of hardware "F" buttons are more u…

> Swapping hardware buttons for touchscreen controls has been a huge success for Apple for over a decade, with the iPhone, iPod Touch, iPad, even the Apple Watch. The Touchbar is just another step down that path.

It isn't a step down that path though. With the iPhone/iPod/iPad the new interface completely changes how you use the device (moving to a phone without physical keys for example). The Macbook touchbar doesn't do that, it just makes things a bit awkward by adding an additional way to interface with your device.

Re: Apple kills the non-Touch Bar MacBook Pro

#264

Post by peterkelly » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 7:13 PM UTC

I wasted two hours the other night because of the touchbar.

I had turned my macbook pro's screen brightness down to complete black as I was using an external monitor only, and in a dark environment. Some time later I happened to restart my machine, and both the internal and external displays came up completely black.

The touchbar displayed only "Esc", without the normal brightness control. I had to figure out from memory how to log in without being able to see the screen, i.e. exactly how far I needed to move the pointer on the trackpad to click on my username, without any indication of what state the UI was in. There was no controls on the touchbar to adjust the display brightness and an external Apple USB keyboard which did have the brightness control keys was not recognised. Fixing it required both an SMC and PRAM reset.

I would pay a significant premium for a macbook pro without the touchbar. I've had other cases where the machine appears to be (but isn't necessarily) bricked and there's no indicator lights anywhere to show what's going on, even if the machine has power. I hope with Ive's departure they'll dial it back a bit and start building machines which might be slightly less beautiful but include some of the more practical affordances.

/rant

Re: Apple kills the non-Touch Bar MacBook Pro

#265

Post by crazygringo » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 7:13 PM UTC

Having talked to a lot of people... the Touch Bar is not meant for regular computer users or for developers.

The Touch Bar is meant for graphics, audio and film professionals. That’s the “Pro”. It’s an incredibly flexible “picker/slider” for colors, volumes, mixing, and so on.

I know HN hates the touch bar... and I personally have no use for it... but we’re not the market for it. There is a market for it, but it’s not us.

I think it’s helpful to acknowledge that in these conversations, rather than act like Apple is making dumb decision in a vacuum.

(And I’m personally happy there’s now a retina MacBook Air without it, which will probably be my next machine.)

Re: Apple kills the non-Touch Bar MacBook Pro

#266

Post by elif » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 7:13 PM UTC

josho wrote: post #17

The Touch Bar was what finally pushed me over the edge to remap caps lock to escape. I'm shocked at how much I enjoy ESC being close to the home row (I'm not even a big vim user). For this change alone I am glad to have the Touch Bar.

That is a bit of twisted logic. It does not say anything positive about touchbar, but conflates a negative in a somewhat dishonest way and ignores the core of this topic, that it is now compulsory. For instance, prison has forced people to change their life for the better, but that does not logically lead to "I am glad to have prison (compulsory for everyone)"

Re: Apple kills the non-Touch Bar MacBook Pro

#267

Post by elbasti » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 7:14 PM UTC

I find that an under appreciated use case for the touch bar is UI discovery. I'm a fairly savvy computer user, but there have been many times when using new software that the touch bar has shown me a feature that I did not know there was a shortcut for.

Re: Apple kills the non-Touch Bar MacBook Pro

#268

Post by kirykl » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 7:14 PM UTC

Removal of the function keys actually dates back to Jobs

"When I invited Jobs to take some time away from NeXT to speak to a group of students, he sat in the lotus position in front of my fireplace and wowed us for three hours, as if leading a séance. But then I asked him if he would sign my Apple Extended Keyboard. He burst out: “This keyboard represents everything about Apple that I hate. It's a battleship. Why does it have all these keys? Do you use this F1 key? No.” And with his car keys he pried it right off. “How about this F2 key?” Off they all went. “I'm changing the world, one keyboard at a time,” he concluded in a calmer voice." [Steve Jurvetson on Steve Jobs 2011-10-06 By Steve Jurvetson.]

Re: Apple kills the non-Touch Bar MacBook Pro

#269

Post by coldpie » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 7:21 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #78

lloeki wrote: post #61

I am a developer. The Touch Bar is useless to me. I remapped Caps lock to Esc expecting to be annoyed, but still hit Esc nonetheless because it works. And I deftly adjust volume using the Touch Bar slider using press-and-slide (not tap then pick-and-slide), relying on the += key for tactile positioning (but the position itself is largely muscle memory by now) I am also a musician. The Touch Bar is fantastic to adjust…

> The Touch Bar is fantastic to adjust tuneables in GarageBand, without the gorilla arm or wobbly screen effect you get on touchscreens. I futzed around with the touch bar in Logic when I got one and wrote it off almost immediately. Logic Remote (which works with GarageBand, AFAIK) already exists and works with an iPad. Clear labels, clear text, manipulating multiple elements easily at once--it's a better solution th…

If you work at fixed locations most of the time, is getting real (i.e. external) keyboards an option?

Re: Apple kills the non-Touch Bar MacBook Pro

#270

Post by HyperTalk2 » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 7:21 PM UTC

Who on earth even asked for this Touch Bar in the first place? The move always struck me as out of touch on the same level as "install this creepy U2 album on everyone's iPhone against their will".