Ross Perot Has Died • Hacker News Board

Re: Ross Perot Has Died

#51

Post by andrekandre » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 4:55 PM UTC

josho wrote: post #17

sequoia wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This debate footage is so remarkable to watch in 2019, for several reasons. 1: They allowed a third party candidate in a general debate 2: The candidate is able to take breaths & even pause without someone cutting jumping in, allowing him to make an complete point 3: No one is talking over him while he talks. Sure the candidates are tougher to manage in 2019 (especially after Trump changed the game in '16), but the d…

I no longer watch debates because I've realized that the broadcasters prefer the format you mentioned. They prefer it because it's more entertaining and that drives ratings which drives revenue. The media conglomerates are not interested in substantive policy discussions.

it’s proof positive imo that profit motive doesn’t always work to the best result... perot’s warning about nafta (among other things) was completely ignored and instead just treated him like a clown because of his accent and looks... makes one wonder what we are doing to candidates today in the media...

Re: Ross Perot Has Died

#52

Post by kaonashi » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 4:56 PM UTC

uses wrote: post #18

What a quaint time when the oddball outsider candidate was a mentally stable human being calmly explaining ideas in a way anybody could understand.

They were bad ideas that were ill-founded and have done far more harm than good, but he explained them with charts, so all good I guess.

Re: Ross Perot Has Died

#53

Post by jason_slack » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

I was in high school when Perot ran for President and I was a huge fan. I remember liking how he wasn’t a politician and therefor looked at the problems our country had from a different point of view.

This was the first time I had ever watched political debates; because I wanted to hear him speak. He was so different.

I also was a huge Apple and then Next fan at that time too. I sent him an email asking if he could help me get a Next computer :-)

His books are good reads if you ever get the chance.

RIP.

Re: Ross Perot Has Died

#54

Post by erik_seaberg » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #37

davidw wrote: post #25

> ran into the establishment What he ran into was the inevitable math of a first past the post electoral system. You want third parties, you need ranked choice voting or something similar. Even if you're fine with the main parties, RCV is probably better in terms of electing who most people want. You could argue that Bush senior might have won with it if the Perot voters ranked 1) Perot 2) Bush. Bush junior might hav…

No, the United States has an Electoral College for very specific reasons that are just as true today and they were when the Constitution was written. It is a shame that political parties formed in the first place, but George Washington couldn't have his way all the time. It has nothing to do with the voting. It had a lot to do with the who controlled information. I get the feeling with the internet of today he would…

The Electoral College was supposed to be chosen by their community to go meet and discuss the candidates. When they get appointed anonymously because they've pledged obedience to a political party, they've rejected their responsibility.

Re: Ross Perot Has Died

#55

Post by marcescence » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 4:59 PM UTC

josho wrote: post #17

sequoia wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This debate footage is so remarkable to watch in 2019, for several reasons. 1: They allowed a third party candidate in a general debate 2: The candidate is able to take breaths & even pause without someone cutting jumping in, allowing him to make an complete point 3: No one is talking over him while he talks. Sure the candidates are tougher to manage in 2019 (especially after Trump changed the game in '16), but the d…

I no longer watch debates because I've realized that the broadcasters prefer the format you mentioned. They prefer it because it's more entertaining and that drives ratings which drives revenue. The media conglomerates are not interested in substantive policy discussions.

I don't think the personal political opinions of candidates matter anyway; the money that they represent or the obligations they have to entities of power are more important.

Re: Ross Perot Has Died

#56

Post by grayed-down » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

I liked Ross Perot and he would have been a terrific president but damn him for not at least trying to primary Bush and allowing the Clintons into the White House.

Re: Ross Perot Has Died

#57

Post by dTal » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 5:03 PM UTC

uses wrote: post #18

What a quaint time when the oddball outsider candidate was a mentally stable human being calmly explaining ideas in a way anybody could understand.

Doesn't this basically describe Bernie Sanders?

Re: Ross Perot Has Died

#58

Post by nothrabannosir » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 5:04 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #44

davidw wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EC and ranked choice voting are two different, and compatible things. You could have RCV within each state, for instance.

Ranked choice might work for parliaments, but it would just create unwelcome surprises in the US. I cannot help but think what happened in a sport (NASCAR) with its switch from winner take all to a series of rankings would mean if it were something as important as voting. You might find sports is not a serious argument, but this is the US and the reaction shows some tendencies towards other aspects of life.

FPTP is one of the most efficient and fundamental enemies of democracy, plaguing the USA. Everyone agrees partisanship is bad, people looooove a “bipartisan” bill, but FPTP mathematically converges on a two party system, always. It fuels tribalism and us-vs-them mentality like nothing else and perpetuates a political aristocracy through perverse incentives and hamstrung competition. To see this in effect, consider that a major party is incentivised to fund fringe opposition parties which will steal votes from the main rival. Ask yourself how healthy that democracy can be.

There are many alternatives and RCV might not be your first choice, but make no mistake about it: FPTP has to go. Stat.

Re: Ross Perot Has Died

#59

Post by nsxwolf » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 5:07 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #20

You can call him "goofy", but he was anything but. I got to watch him give a speech in Fargo during the 92 campaign and it was amazing. At the time, I got into the habit of reading each candidates "book" they put out during the election. His was short, to the point, and very specific on what needed fixing. He was a serious man that ran into the establishment and got hammered.

He was a nicer Donald Trump.

Re: Ross Perot Has Died

#60

Post by espeed » Tue, Jul 09, 2019, 5:10 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #25

> ran into the establishment What he ran into was the inevitable math of a first past the post electoral system. You want third parties, you need ranked choice voting or something similar. Even if you're fine with the main parties, RCV is probably better in terms of electing who most people want. You could argue that Bush senior might have won with it if the Perot voters ranked 1) Perot 2) Bush. Bush junior might hav…

> You want third parties, you need ranked choice voting or something similar.

Arrow's Impossibility Theorem : "When voters have three or more distinct alternatives (options), no ranked voting electoral system can convert the ranked preferences of individuals into a community-wide (complete and transitive) ranking while also meeting a specified set of criteria: unrestricted domain, non-dictatorship, Pareto efficiency, and independence of irrelevant alternatives" [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow's_impossibility_theorem