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Libra, 2 Weeks In

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Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#251

Post by dahfizz »

Camro wrote: post #155
dahfizz wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like nothing but fearmongering. We don't any reason to expect that libra is going to displace "real" currencies. Why the hell would the governments of the world give up their power over currency? It is a huge power they hold that they do not want to lose. Have you ever heard the term "legal tender"? You are legally required to accept USD as payment in America, and every country has a similar law. The gover…

> You are legally required to accept USD as payment in America Accepting a currency doesn't force a customer to use it.

> Accepting a currency doesn't force a customer to use it.

Only accepting a certain currency does force a customer to use it, which is the case 99.99% of the time.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#252

Post by Faark »

hajile wrote: post #75
simonebrunozzi wrote: post #2

I have been following Libra very closely, and have read their white paper twice. There have been a few good discussions here on HN when it launched [0], but I think most of these have been very biased against anything Facebook-related. I find the launch of Libra a really interesting "experiment", with potentially big negative or positive consequences for the entire world. Right now, it's really hard to judge on the t…

When you're talking about controlling money, politics matter more than "technical merit". Libra is invite only and they invited their business friends. Libra consortium is based in Switzerland, so the businesses involved have guaranteed essentially zero government oversight. Libra's owners have complete control over how much currency, the currency exchange rate, and even inflation rates (note that inflation is actual…

> note that inflation is actually a tax on wealth

I thought so as well, initially. But it only taxes a very specific form of wealth... money. As such this tax probably disproportionally affects those unable to transfer their wealth into other forms. Probably once again mostly the poor. Still a valuable tool, but not the great solution I once thought it to be.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#253

Post by gridlockd »

sametmax wrote: post #210
gridlockd wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly how all cryptocurrencies already are allowed to operate. Any domestic crypto exchange has to do KYC, but also cooperate with the IRS. With most cryptocurrencies, transactions are public and traceable.

You mean exchanges. Exchanges != crypto. Individuals can use btc anonymously. It's public, but only the person you deal with know who owns your wallet.

Those exchanges are those "on and off ramps" that the Facebook is talking about here.

Otherwise, Libra can be used "anonymously" just like Bitcoin. You download a client, you generate an identity and then you can receive/send it.

https://developers.libra.org/docs/my-first-transaction#creat...

That's why the whole money laundering issue comes up in the first place, because Libra is a cryptocurrency much like many others.

Its distinction is really that it's not decentralized (like Ripple), that it's backed by real assets (like Tether - supposedly) and that Facebook and some other big corps are involved.

Those are all reasons for crypto-idealists to hate on it and spread FUD, which the Facebook-hating rest of the interest readily gobbles up.

In practice, those are all reasons for Libra to actually work as a means of exchange, as opposed to a highly speculative risk asset. Ripple transactions are instant. Tether price is stable, despite its sketchy background. Big corporations can influence points-of-sale.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#254

Post by democracy »

gridlockd wrote: post #253
sametmax wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean exchanges. Exchanges != crypto. Individuals can use btc anonymously. It's public, but only the person you deal with know who owns your wallet.

Those exchanges are those "on and off ramps" that the Facebook is talking about here. Otherwise, Libra can be used "anonymously" just like Bitcoin. You download a client, you generate an identity and then you can receive/send it. https://developers.libra.org/docs/my-first-transaction#creat... That's why the whole money laundering issue comes up in the first place, because Libra is a cryptocurrency much like many othe…

What we call a "cryptocurrency" must be decentralised otherwise it is a Paypal version X. Ripple is 100% centralised by the way.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#255

Post by thorwasdfasdf »

sametmax wrote: post #212
Lucadg wrote: post #127

This is the part where they reveal how they plan to negotiate with regulators: "At the core, we believe that a network that helps move more cash transactions — where a lot of illicit activities happen — to a digital network that features regulated on and off ramps with proper know-your-customer (KYC) practices, combined with the ability for law enforcement and regulators to conduct their own analysis of on-chain acti…

Not just privacy. Democracy in general. No cash mean you can't do anything that has not been validated by the state first. It means kids will have less options to foul around without the parents checking it. It means you won't be able to pay in a gay bar anonymously. It means any new (and hence controversial) political concept will have no way to financially grow to acceptance. It means no living off the grid. It mea…

> It means no escape if the gov raises taxes in an unjust way.

This is already the case, and has been for almost a hundred years.

Govt spending/taxation is 38% in the US! So, I we're already there.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#256

Post by gruez »

0xDEFC0DE wrote: post #241
gruez wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't need to form the blockchain to reverse a transaction. Since they control redemption and minting, they can simply refuse to redeem from the "losing" party and mint new units to compensate the "winning" party. >They will still need a human layer to verify theft has occurred and it isn’t a fraudulent claim of theft where just I stole from myself Or have something similar to credit cards where you're forced in…

What are Facebook redeeming? I don't think I'll need Facebook to transact with someone else for goods and services with stolen Libra. Goods can then be exchanged for USD and the theft is complete. They can mint, and that's not a direct debit from Facebook's wallet, but it would devalue the currency ever so slightly. But that raises the question of 'How much needs to be stolen before I activate the minting process?' I…

>What are Facebook redeeming? I don't think I'll need Facebook to transact with someone else for goods and services with stolen Libra. Goods can then be exchanged for USD and the theft is complete.

Right, they would also have to block the funds from being moved, which shouldn't be difficult since they control all the validating nodes.

>They can mint, and that's not a direct debit from Facebook's wallet, but it would devalue the currency ever so slightly.

If the funds are frozen, those funds are effectively out of circulation (similar to cash being destroyed or cryptocurrency wallets being lost), so that would cancel out any devaluing effects.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#257

Post by jki275 »

democracy wrote: post #254
gridlockd wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those exchanges are those "on and off ramps" that the Facebook is talking about here. Otherwise, Libra can be used "anonymously" just like Bitcoin. You download a client, you generate an identity and then you can receive/send it. https://developers.libra.org/docs/my-first-transaction#creat... That's why the whole money laundering issue comes up in the first place, because Libra is a cryptocurrency much like many othe…

What we call a "cryptocurrency" must be decentralised otherwise it is a Paypal version X. Ripple is 100% centralised by the way.

I would agree. Ripple is not considered a cryptocurrency by most, as it is simply a centrally validated bank coin.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#258

Post by 0xDEFC0DE »

gruez wrote: post #256
0xDEFC0DE wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are Facebook redeeming? I don't think I'll need Facebook to transact with someone else for goods and services with stolen Libra. Goods can then be exchanged for USD and the theft is complete. They can mint, and that's not a direct debit from Facebook's wallet, but it would devalue the currency ever so slightly. But that raises the question of 'How much needs to be stolen before I activate the minting process?' I…

>What are Facebook redeeming? I don't think I'll need Facebook to transact with someone else for goods and services with stolen Libra. Goods can then be exchanged for USD and the theft is complete. Right, they would also have to block the funds from being moved, which shouldn't be difficult since they control all the validating nodes. >They can mint, and that's not a direct debit from Facebook's wallet, but it would…

If they block funds, that'll essentially blacklist the address from doing transactions, so it might be possible to launder it through legitimate services (otherwise Facebook blocks an entire exchange's wallet from moving Libra, thus making that exchange halt and catch fire).

What you'd need is a service that allows you to convert from Libra to an item/currency and then back to Libra, ideally with the ability to trade the intermediate item between users.

This heads off into the unexplored territory. I don't think anyone knows how they're going to handle legit services that launder Libra on the side.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#259

Post by carlosdp »

unwrap wrote: post #135
carlosdp wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally what they say it's designed for: giving access to the digital economy to the 500m+ people in emerging markets that have internet + phone, but no banking services.

I am confused. I live in a country with "banking services", but almost nobody here uses them. We get paid on debit cards, and then we immediately withdraw the sum in cash. We pay for everything in cash, why would we ever switch to something different? I can only see the negative consequences: the usual privacy implications (some guy can see what I spend my money on); the danger of not being able to spend money at all…

"Banking services" does not mean just bank accounts, it means any services that depend on money being elsewhere, not in your hands.

That debit card you use, it's backed by a bank. Most credit cards are backed by banks.

Economic censorship is certainly a valid concern, I think that's the kind of stuff we should be talking about with Libra. Fees on Libra would be way way cheaper than fees on credit cards, I don't think that's a huge concern. (most of the fees on credit cards come from the underlying banks, not the payment networks themselves)

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#260

Post by carlosdp »

fbi-director wrote: post #89
carlosdp wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally what they say it's designed for: giving access to the digital economy to the 500m+ people in emerging markets that have internet + phone, but no banking services.

It's dauntingly scary that people seem to have already forgotten that FB is known and has been ousted for abusing every bit of power and information they are given. And now you're excited that there's another aspect of your personal info, perhaps the most important part that they'll get (some kind of) control over? Increasing their power as a company overall as well.. Really mind blowing!

I don't have to have a Facebook account to use Libra, I don't have to give them any additional information unless I use their app.
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