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Libra, 2 Weeks In

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Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#81

Post by MuffinFlavored »

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #2

I have been following Libra very closely, and have read their white paper twice. There have been a few good discussions here on HN when it launched [0], but I think most of these have been very biased against anything Facebook-related. I find the launch of Libra a really interesting "experiment", with potentially big negative or positive consequences for the entire world. Right now, it's really hard to judge on the t…

> with potentially big negative or positive consequences for the entire world.

What are some of the biggest positive consequences potentially offered by Libra in your opinion?

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#82

Post by hajile »

dmix wrote: post #78
hajile wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you're talking about controlling money, politics matter more than "technical merit". Libra is invite only and they invited their business friends. Libra consortium is based in Switzerland, so the businesses involved have guaranteed essentially zero government oversight. Libra's owners have complete control over how much currency, the currency exchange rate, and even inflation rates (note that inflation is actual…

> Libra consortium is based in Switzerland, so the businesses involved have guaranteed essentially zero government oversight. Do you really think a massive US company using some Switzerland corporation is going to protect Facebook and their investors against any regulatory scrutiny?

Yes. Facebook is undoubtedly incorporated in other countries as well. The US could pressure Facebook, but they could move servers elsewhere.

Even if they didn't, the US would have to pressure every single company involved.

More importantly, the US can't just audit bank records from another country. They can't go after Facebook unless they can prove wrongdoing. Offshore accounts protect a lot of bad people for this very reason.

Edit: There also the long term issue. If their currency takes off, the economic power it gives also shields them. Remember too big to fail? We can hardly manage the federal reserve where the government is actually part owner. The situation here would be much worse.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#83

Post by IAmGraydon »

I'm asking this in all seriousness. Why would anyone want to use Libra?

Let's say a consumer wants to buy something. They can either pay with "normal" money in one step or they can use their phone to convert their money into Libra and then make the purchase with Libra. Why would they go through the extra step(s)? Am I to believe that the benefit is "lower transaction fees"? Because if so, Libra doesn't have a chance. Only vendors, not customers, see those fees directly. Even if the customers did see them, they aren't big enough to sway the inertia of the way things are.

In the real world, the vast majority cares very little about things like decentralization. They don't care about how the banking system works and who controls the flow of money. They want to swipe their card and get what they want. Anything more than that is just an obstacle. At least BTC has the benefits of pseudo-anonymity and speculative appreciation. Libra has neither.

Beyond all of this, people like to have control over their money. To feel they have control, people need to have understanding. Paper is easy to understand. Cryptocurrency makes people nervous. Facebook REALLY makes people nervous. Put the two together and it will feel like a big risk to users.

I'm an open minded guy, but I don't see it. Someone please enlighten me as to why this won't be Facebook's biggest failure. Why would anyone want to use Libra?

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#84

Post by pjc50 »

mbesto wrote: post #68
javert wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if it isn't fully apparent, the people can vote out a president that controls the Fed. The president of the United States does not control the Fed, if that's what you're saying. The current U.S. president is extremely unhappy with the current Fed chairman and has repeatedly demanded that the Fed alter its policies, to no avail. > Also, the Fed is US only...so there's that The U.S. dollar is pretty global.

> The current U.S. president is extremely unhappy with the current Fed chairman and has repeatedly demanded that the Fed alter its policies, to no avail. And yet he nominated him. What's your point? AFAIK he also technically has the power to fire him too. > The U.S. dollar is pretty global. Can you use the dollar to buy food at a foodstand in Germany? No. Just because certain aspects of the global economy are driven…

> Can you use the dollar to buy food at a foodstand in Germany? No

Probably not, but in a tourist place you might succeed. And there's still plenty of places where the US dollar is more welcome than local currency. It's hard money, regardless of the politics of the Fed.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#85

Post by carlosdp »

hajile wrote: post #75
simonebrunozzi wrote: post #2

I have been following Libra very closely, and have read their white paper twice. There have been a few good discussions here on HN when it launched [0], but I think most of these have been very biased against anything Facebook-related. I find the launch of Libra a really interesting "experiment", with potentially big negative or positive consequences for the entire world. Right now, it's really hard to judge on the t…

When you're talking about controlling money, politics matter more than "technical merit". Libra is invite only and they invited their business friends. Libra consortium is based in Switzerland, so the businesses involved have guaranteed essentially zero government oversight. Libra's owners have complete control over how much currency, the currency exchange rate, and even inflation rates (note that inflation is actual…

> Libra is invite only and they invited their business friends.

That's a big assumption. They were able to get their business friends to sign on, probably because they are already friends. I'm sure they asked a lot of other groups that were more hesitant, it would have made the initial announcement much more powerful.

Also important to note non-profits, NGOs, and universities are included, and they don't have to pay the $10m buy-in.

> and all that is before the privacy aspect. While accounts may be "anonymous", Facebook can use their data to identify you anyway...

The way Libra is designed, that would probably be a lot more trouble than it is worth. Tracking methods without direct trackers (like 3rd-party cookies) work because there are many data points. Like in browser fingerprinting, you have user agents, JS feature availability, history, etc.

With Libra, you only have an account address and transactions to other anonymous account addresses. One dimension of data like that would be very very hard to trace back to the user, without direct participation from many many merchants.

> There's also the wrongthink aspect.

Fair, however afaik only 1 of the 28 current companies (Facebook) has this attribute.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#86

Post by carlosdp »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #81
simonebrunozzi wrote: post #2

I have been following Libra very closely, and have read their white paper twice. There have been a few good discussions here on HN when it launched [0], but I think most of these have been very biased against anything Facebook-related. I find the launch of Libra a really interesting "experiment", with potentially big negative or positive consequences for the entire world. Right now, it's really hard to judge on the t…

> with potentially big negative or positive consequences for the entire world. What are some of the biggest positive consequences potentially offered by Libra in your opinion?

Literally what they say it's designed for: giving access to the digital economy to the 500m+ people in emerging markets that have internet + phone, but no banking services.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#87

Post by hndamien »

carlosdp wrote: post #39
hndamien wrote: post #3

Short of transaction speed and cost, there is so little that is appealing in this compared to Bitcoin, and it has all of the centralisation and compliance pitfalls that a neutral, free (liberty), decentralised money already avoids.

It has price stability, that's a big one.

Supply stability (or constraint) may be the more important feature.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#88

Post by snowwrestler »

whatshisface wrote: post #13
mromanuk wrote: post #9

Call me pessimist, but cartelized private global corporations owning and “printing” money can only bring bad things. It is centralized and is controlled by an elite.

The Fed isn't? It has more private board members than appointed board members, and some have argued that it has consistently prioritized the interests of the banks at the expense of encouraging leverage like cash is going out of style. This is closer to a battle between west coast elites and east coast elites than it is about the people versus the elites.

The Fed Board of Governors (the body that makes monetary policy) is an agency of the federal government. That means that yes, it is centralized, but it also means that it operates under a public, transparent, and democratically changeable legal structure. If Americans don't like the Fed, they can vote for a president and members of Congress who will change it.

Bitcoin has become centered on the few largest mining operations. Libra is centered on Facebook. Who elected them? How do currency holders influence them? There are no defined ways to do so.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#89

Post by fbi-director »

carlosdp wrote: post #86
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with potentially big negative or positive consequences for the entire world. What are some of the biggest positive consequences potentially offered by Libra in your opinion?

Literally what they say it's designed for: giving access to the digital economy to the 500m+ people in emerging markets that have internet + phone, but no banking services.

It's dauntingly scary that people seem to have already forgotten that FB is known and has been ousted for abusing every bit of power and information they are given. And now you're excited that there's another aspect of your personal info, perhaps the most important part that they'll get (some kind of) control over? Increasing their power as a company overall as well.. Really mind blowing!

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#90

Post by rtpg »

IAmGraydon wrote: post #83

I'm asking this in all seriousness. Why would anyone want to use Libra? Let's say a consumer wants to buy something. They can either pay with "normal" money in one step or they can use their phone to convert their money into Libra and then make the purchase with Libra. Why would they go through the extra step(s)? Am I to believe that the benefit is "lower transaction fees"? Because if so, Libra doesn't have a chance.…

Most payment apps are locked to a specific country. If Libra becomes "Alipay except cross-country" then a bunch of tourist-y places in (for example) southeast Asia could start using it to get tourist's money without much of a hassle (especially given how many people are already accepting QR code payments from some local app)

Similarly, cross-border payments in general are a huge PITA and affect enough people that stuff like Transferwise exists. If Libra can help assuage that there's a nice market there.

It might not be a resounding success but it could be enough to sustain an ecosystem.

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