It’s Never Going to Be Perfect, So Just Get It Done • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s Never Going to Be Perfect, So Just Get It Done

#81

Post by pier25 » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #61

pier25 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For artistic creation I always come back to this anecdote from the book "Art and Fear": "The ceramics teacher announced on opening day that he was dividing the class into two groups. All those on the left side of the studio, he said, would be graded solely on the quantity of work they produced, all those on the right solely on its quality. His procedure was simple: on the final day of class he would bring in his bath…

That anecdote seems to be a story that was just made up. It is believable if the students have never done ceramics before, however if the students have done a lot before I would expect thinking about what to make would become more useful than doing something again for the millionth time.

Yeah it's probably a parable, but the point it makes is valid.

Re: It’s Never Going to Be Perfect, So Just Get It Done

#82

Post by JadeNB » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 9:24 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #30

tabtab wrote: post #5

Steve Wozniak suggests the Apple II became successful because he's a perfectionist. He talks about throwing out almost-finished designs because he thought of a more streamlined approach while implementing the existing one. Then again, Steve Jobs has suggested that "Woz" spent so much time fiddling with Apple II hardware that he never got around to adding floating point math to Apple BASIC. (They probably should have…

Probably helps to have a combo of such personality types. Woz: "Look we can do this better just give me some time." Steve: "Ok fine." -time- Woz: "Hey we can also-" Steve: "Damn it Woz no we need to sell a thing already!"

This is how I get research papers done with a collaborator! You need the one who wants to generalise a little more, and the one who wants to get it published and out the door. It's OK if these roles switch over time, but having both is good.

Re: It’s Never Going to Be Perfect, So Just Get It Done

#83

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 9:27 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #59

koolba wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think communication has anything to do with it. It’s just shame. I tested this out once with a friend who complained about procrastination issues. I suggested he have his wife sit by him while working from home. His wife has no programming background whatsoever but she knows that browsing Reddit or YouTube isn’t work. Apparently he got a lot done that day. Free Startup Idea : Supply “interns” to shadow employ…

>> His wife has no programming background whatsoever but she knows that browsing Reddit or YouTube isn’t work. Or Hacker News...

Oh yes indeed. My wife can spot the orange banner from a mile out. She also knows when I'm instinctively alt-tabbing as I hear her coming near. For tasks where I know what to do and just need to code it, I'm easily 2x as productive with my wife around, and that's after accounting for the distraction of us talking about stuff.

Re: It’s Never Going to Be Perfect, So Just Get It Done

#84

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 9:29 PM UTC

koolba wrote: post #36

Buttons840 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pretend-work I pretend I'm live streaming my programming session, it seems to cause some switch to flip in my brain and seems to help. Maybe I should actually live stream? But I probably wouldn't have real viewers, and don't know how to fit multiple monitors into a stream.

I'm convinced that the majority of the value from pair programming (literally sitting next to each other, not "virtual" pair programming) comes from the fear of looking like a lazy idiot in front of the other programmer.

Strongly agreed; that is my impression and experience as well. Two people paired up keep each other in check. I sometimes find it stressful and exhausting, but it's hard to deny the productivity boost.

Re: It’s Never Going to Be Perfect, So Just Get It Done

#85

Post by heavenlyblue » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 9:30 PM UTC

andrewstuart wrote: post #78

I still build out everything required to realise the vision, and that usually takes at least months to build. There's an analogy in startups that you should build a great skateboard first if your vision is to build a better car, but I just don't agree. If you have a vision for a better car then you need to deliver a better car, not a skateboard, because, well a skateboard just isn't a car. https://blog.crisp.se/2016/…

>> They had tried to build similar systems in the past and failed miserably, mainly because of Big Bang thinking. They told me that one of their previous attempts took 7 years from inception to first release. SEVEN YEARS! By then of course everything had changed and the project was a total failure. So this time they wanted to do it differently.

Or well... Maybe it's just that they have failed to build a system because the IT industry had been changing incredibly fast at the time. So they built their skateboard, but the government closed the skateboard parks, and everyone jumped ship to rollerblades. And that's how they've spent the full 7 years.

Re: It’s Never Going to Be Perfect, So Just Get It Done

#86

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 9:39 PM UTC

gowld wrote: post #25

nerdponx wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Mediate" and "journal" are two specific solutions. The general answer is "figure out what's stopping you from getting something done and take steps to mitigate or reduce it."

That's barely a restatement of the question "how do I stop procrastinating", not an answer. Advice like "find a way to start, and finishing will come later" is at least a substantial step forward. (But still incomplete, as it doesn't solve the problems of distraction, meandering, prioritization, time management, perfectionism)

It's not a restatement of the question; it's an algorithm.

The problem with procrastination is that it has so many different potential causes and idiosyncrasies that a random advice from the Internet or self-help literature isn't likely to work long-term (once the novelty factor wears off, which for me is usually around a week). The solution really seems to be to keep trying all of the advice, one after another, in combinations and with personal modifications, until something sticks and you start to do better.

For me personally, what seems to have stuck is, in order:

- Doing a "mind dump" whenever I'm overwhelmed by anxiety or confused by what to do. It usually calms me down and clears my head.

- Doing work in pomodoros to reduce the starting anxiety; setting a modest goal of pomodoros to achieve any given work day to consider it a win.

- Most recently, a perverted form of Unschedule. I tried Unschedule and started failing after just 3 days, but I twisted it into the following form: I don't schedule/unschedule anything at all, but just reward myself with 1 point of "guilt-free play" per each 2 work pomodoros completed. I get to spend the points on whatever hobby project or videogame or other fun activity I want, without feeling any guilt or obligation or pressure to do something else. The ratio is somewhat arbitrary (like, e.g., 1 point = 1 flight in Kerbal Space Program), but that doesn't matter. What I realized is that I started to like raking in GFP points, and then spending them in bursts on some projects I previously kept in a "someday/maybe" list. I find myself thinking, "hey, let's work some more, gotta earn GFP points to burn in a couple of days on $project". It seems that I like accumulating them just in anticipation of spending them.

Re: It’s Never Going to Be Perfect, So Just Get It Done

#87

Post by tomatotomato37 » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 9:57 PM UTC

jhedwards wrote: post #43

I had the same negative reaction to the title that other commenters had, and of course I was thinking about software. But then I opened the article and saw a picture of a canvas and my mind shifted to music. I know lots of people who love to write music or want to write music but can never get anything done because of a feeling that it has to be perfect. I have always embraced an aesthetic of rough imperfection in my…

Funnily enough I had the opposite reaction; I thought this was a standard "Move fast & break things" article over a SaaS app or whatever, but the picture gave me a negative impression that this was less of an article about how great is the enemy of good, and more justification for doing the most half-assed job humanly possible and then trying to justify it posthumously as a tactical decision. The worst thing is that I read the article and I logically know he's not advocating for that, but that image provoked such a visceral reaction that I'm unable to shake that impression.

Re: It’s Never Going to Be Perfect, So Just Get It Done

#88

Post by thom » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 10:06 PM UTC

I think many people and teams (myself included) have pretty poor self-knowledge. You should aim to create the best product you’re capable of. Most people either over or under estimate that, and they’re left either never delivering, or spending the rest of their lives complaining about technical debt.

Re: It’s Never Going to Be Perfect, So Just Get It Done

#89

Post by CharlesW » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 10:07 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #61

pier25 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For artistic creation I always come back to this anecdote from the book "Art and Fear": "The ceramics teacher announced on opening day that he was dividing the class into two groups. All those on the left side of the studio, he said, would be graded solely on the quantity of work they produced, all those on the right solely on its quality. His procedure was simple: on the final day of class he would bring in his bath…

That anecdote seems to be a story that was just made up. It is believable if the students have never done ceramics before, however if the students have done a lot before I would expect thinking about what to make would become more useful than doing something again for the millionth time.

> That anecdote seems to be a story that was just made up.

It's true, although they changed the medium: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19960342

> James Clear reached out to the authors of Art & Fear and this is his footnote: https://jamesclear.com/repetitions

> This story comes from page 29 of Art & Fear by David Bayles and Ted Orland. In an email conversation with Orland on October 18, 2016, he explained the origins of the story. “Yes, the 'ceramics story' in Art & Fear is indeed true, allowing for some literary license in the retelling. Its real-world origin was as a gambit employed by photographer Jerry Uelsmann to motivate his Beginning Photography students at the University of Florida. As retold in Art & Fear it faithfully captures the scene as Jerry told it to me—except I replaced photography with ceramics as the medium being explored. Admittedly, it would’ve been easier to retain photography as the art medium being discussed, but David Bayles (co-author) & I are both photographers ourselves, and at the time we were consciously trying to broaden the range of media being referenced in the text. The intriguing thing to me is that it hardly matters what art form was invoked—the moral of the story appears to hold equally true straight across the whole art spectrum (and even outside the arts, for that matter).” Later in that same email, Orland said, "You have our permission to reprint the any or all of the 'ceramics' passage in your forthcoming book." In the end, I settled on publishing an adapted version, which combines their telling of the ceramics story with facts from the original source of Uelsmann’s photography students. David Bayles and Ted Orland, Art & Fear: Observations on the Perils (and Rewards) of Artmaking (Santa Cruz, CA: Image Continuum Press, 1993), 29.

Re: It’s Never Going to Be Perfect, So Just Get It Done

#90

Post by nostrademons » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 10:12 PM UTC

andrewstuart wrote: post #78

I still build out everything required to realise the vision, and that usually takes at least months to build. There's an analogy in startups that you should build a great skateboard first if your vision is to build a better car, but I just don't agree. If you have a vision for a better car then you need to deliver a better car, not a skateboard, because, well a skateboard just isn't a car. https://blog.crisp.se/2016/…

In practical startup terms, if your idea is to deliver either a better car or a better skateboard, you've already failed. Both these industries have a century of optimization behind them; even if you did manage to catch up, any useful innovations would be copied by incumbents. Successful startups usually come out of new markets: areas where the environment has changed such that existing product categories or delivery channels no longer match what consumers want to do. You can't really define these as "better" except in the sense of users adopting them rather than existing alternatives: if you could, the existing companies would've done it.

Rather than designing a great skateboard or a better car, your goal might be to design the Schweeb, or OneWheel, or Segway, or HyperLoop, or rideshare or scooter rental company. There're still plenty of ways to fail with these, but at least you have a chance of success.