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It’s Official: This Is Now the Longest Economic Expansion in US History

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Re: It’s Official: This Is Now the Longest Economic Expansion in US History

#41
post #31
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this explain the loss of value of money by inflation?

More batteries, without there also being more electricity made.

There exists the law of conservation for charge (aka electricity) and energy, but no conservation law for money.

Money behaves more like entropy.

Re: It’s Official: This Is Now the Longest Economic Expansion in US History

#42
post #37

Quantitative easing is a powerful drug. During the 2008 crisis, most observers didn't even seriously consider the possibility that the Fed could buy long-term treasuries and mortgage securities. Those who did vastly underestimated the scale on which the Fed would eventually do so. But QE is also highly addictive. The next downturn will most likely take place within the next 18 months. It's going to catch a lot of dum…

>negative interest rates will transform the grossly distorted world economy into something completely unrecognizable

Can you elaborate on this? I thought Japan had negative interest rates for quite a while

Re: It’s Official: This Is Now the Longest Economic Expansion in US History

#43
post #20
post #2

Money is strange, right? It literally doesn't exist yet it can run out and cause entire nations to go into chaos. Since it is literally a sociological experiment, are we going to get to the point where we fine tune the allotment such that we disable down-turns? It's almost as if we simply just get angsty all at once, see a global therapist and the economy recovers.

Money is quite simple - it is the accumulation of value of individual work. The same way batteries store electricity - money store value of work. The same way batteries exchange stored electricity to perform work, money is exchanging stored value to work of others that we desire.

Modern money is more debt and promise rather than fruits of labor. Most money is created by loans which are 90% invented money (10% deposit to loan ratio, Federal Reserve "funding", etc). So 90% of all loan money is just a marker of debt and a promise to repay rather than the fruit of anyone's labor. But you pay massive amounts of compounded interest on that invention, and many/most people work most of their lives to pay off their mortgages. So we must churn out grain our entire lives for basic necessities because people have access to this marker, and they will price you out of a home if you won't get on the treadmill with them.

There is a social/historical commentary and a philosophical/political science discussion to be had here, but unfortunately I don't have the time right now...

Re: It’s Official: This Is Now the Longest Economic Expansion in US History

#44
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it was the government that caused this in the first place. I always wonder why people suggest this, when the "cure" to the ailment is more of the disease.

How does the government cause downturns?

By doing stuff like "guaranteeing" student loans, encouraging policies of buying homes with high credit, getting the Fed to lower interest rests too much (making credit so cheap and easy companies don't even use their profits to buy/invest in stuff anymore; they even use credit to buy back their stock. Insanity), etc

All of that distorts the market and makes everyone spend money they don't actually have. Eventually all of this catches up with everyone, on a country-wide scale.

Re: It’s Official: This Is Now the Longest Economic Expansion in US History

#45
post #37

Quantitative easing is a powerful drug. During the 2008 crisis, most observers didn't even seriously consider the possibility that the Fed could buy long-term treasuries and mortgage securities. Those who did vastly underestimated the scale on which the Fed would eventually do so. But QE is also highly addictive. The next downturn will most likely take place within the next 18 months. It's going to catch a lot of dum…

Negative rates are nothing other than a complete failure of the financial system. If we go there it's the beginning of a very dark, very oppressive era. Crypto and metals will shoot the moon. And shadow economies will sprout under every rock.

Re: It’s Official: This Is Now the Longest Economic Expansion in US History

#46
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t run out. It just gets stuck.

I'm sure someone has come up with a better analogy, but dollars are like electrons, they only do work when they move. I was looking at some other HN thread a while back and there was someone talking about how a subscription model works much better for investors because the regularity of returns worked best with expectations from the investors. And it occurred to me at that time that this electric analogy might extend…

Upvoting because, to be honest, the moving electrons/moving dollars analogy works really well for me, and especially I think that's a useful analogy. For a society, in general, dollars sitting idle in a bank account instead of being spent on something constructive or services where someone is getting paid for work or something of utility is being built/created are not, from my perspective, useful to that society. Sure, someone's balance sheet might be achieving larger-and-larger numbers, and that serves their own purposes, but not those of greater society.

Re: It’s Official: This Is Now the Longest Economic Expansion in US History

#47
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is quite simple - it is the accumulation of value of individual work. The same way batteries store electricity - money store value of work. The same way batteries exchange stored electricity to perform work, money is exchanging stored value to work of others that we desire.

The Labor Theory of Value is a fun toy model, but it isn't very accurate.

What do you mean? It has been proven empirically, see work done by Paul Cockshott. Coming from pure reason, the theory is pretty sensible as well, and provides a good model to understand the origin of value in the economy. It is especially useful when trying to understand the effects of massive automation on society.

Re: It’s Official: This Is Now the Longest Economic Expansion in US History

#48
post #38

I think that GDP (and therefore inflation) don't actually measure what they used to. You can measure the number of cars being produced and houses built. It doesn't really matter how you quantity value the value of a 1999 vw golf relative to the 2019 model. Once iphones, Google, Spotify & such get thrown into the mix... GDP just doesn't tell us much about how economic output has changed over the last 20 years. For the…

I'm not sure what it really measures anymore What makes you think it has been at least once meaningful ?

..the stuff it measured. Deltas in manufacturing volume. More steel = more GDP. More refrigerators = more GDP.

There were always ambiguities. More lawyer fees = more GDP? Questionable. But... The portion of simple more=more economic outputs has really shrunk relative to the ambiguous ones where moremore or price=0 or whatnot.

Re: It’s Official: This Is Now the Longest Economic Expansion in US History

#49
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the government cause downturns?

By doing stuff like "guaranteeing" student loans, encouraging policies of buying homes with high credit, getting the Fed to lower interest rests too much (making credit so cheap and easy companies don't even use their profits to buy/invest in stuff anymore; they even use credit to buy back their stock. Insanity), etc All of that distorts the market and makes everyone spend money they don't actually have. Eventually a…

==makes everyone spend money they don't actually have.==

So much for all that personal responsibility we used to hear so much about. Far easier to blame the government for everything.

Companies use credit to buy back stock because we deregulated that activity. It used to be that the government didn’t allow it. This point is actually a counter-point to your theory.

Re: It’s Official: This Is Now the Longest Economic Expansion in US History

#50
post #41
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More batteries, without there also being more electricity made.

There exists the law of conservation for charge (aka electricity) and energy, but no conservation law for money. Money behaves more like entropy.

Yeah, it's definitely not an airtight metaphor.
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