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Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

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Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#21

Post by ChrisRR »

tanakachen wrote: post #17

As has been discussed on HN, this whole 737 MAX flaw is not a software problem. Boeing wants you to believe it is. The flaw is actually a physical design problem of the aircraft. Even if the software were to work perfectly, the plane is still flawed. The only real fix is not to fly the 737 MAX.

It's a problem with the entire process. The hardware, software, safety as an option, lack of training, risk assessment, design, alarms that aren't easily identifiable, features that can't be over-ridden.

There's issues throughout practically every step and they want people to believe that they're just going to push a software update and everything will be 100% fixed.

Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#22

Post by hef19898 »

tanakachen wrote: post #17

As has been discussed on HN, this whole 737 MAX flaw is not a software problem. Boeing wants you to believe it is. The flaw is actually a physical design problem of the aircraft. Even if the software were to work perfectly, the plane is still flawed. The only real fix is not to fly the 737 MAX.

Yeah, it seems that Boeing hit a hard design limit with the 737 airframe. Main issue is the low ground clearance which makes it impossible, one could argue, to fit new engines. Which would mean that the 737 reached its end-of-life. That must scare the shit out of Boeing execs, and rightly so when your bread and butter product needs to be replaced by something new.

Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#23

Post by pratap103 »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #13
mongol wrote: post #11

Is the 80286 still in production? Or is it old stock on a shelf somewhere that is used?

AFAIK, Airbus has stockpiled huge amounts of legacy CPUs in climate controlled conditions. Boeing must have done the same

Was really curious as to what Airbus was using, thanks for this! Why not just use the latest CPUs though? I can't imagine the cost would be relatively significant in the greater scheme of things. Are the legacy CPU's really better for this use-case?

Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#24

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

0815test wrote: post #20
bcaa7f3a8bbc wrote: post #3

Simple question: Why doesn't Boeing upgrade to i386 for their new planes? I heard it's available for aerospace applications.

Forget about upgrading - they could just press the Turbo button on that 286. That's what it's there for!

Thanks for making me chuckle early in the morning.

Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#25

Post by yread »

tanakachen wrote: post #17

As has been discussed on HN, this whole 737 MAX flaw is not a software problem. Boeing wants you to believe it is. The flaw is actually a physical design problem of the aircraft. Even if the software were to work perfectly, the plane is still flawed. The only real fix is not to fly the 737 MAX.

Aviation is about managing the risks. Even flawed airplane like 737NG (a 4 decades old airframe when designed, whole bunch of hacks from cockpit to elevator) can become very safe with 0.2 hull losses per million flights. The Classic had its rudder issue, it was fixed. This will also get fixed by a combination of engineering, code, checklists and training. It won't be cheap but it will get fixed

Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#26

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

pratap103 wrote: post #23
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK, Airbus has stockpiled huge amounts of legacy CPUs in climate controlled conditions. Boeing must have done the same

Was really curious as to what Airbus was using, thanks for this! Why not just use the latest CPUs though? I can't imagine the cost would be relatively significant in the greater scheme of things. Are the legacy CPU's really better for this use-case?

Aero industry moves at a very slow pace. The state of the art F-22 Raptor uses intel 386 cpu and the F-35 lightning upgraded to more "modern" PowerPC CPUs, similar to the ones on legacy Macs.

Planes don't need insane multitasking processing power like our smartphones or PCs. They mostly do signal processing and sensor fusion in a tight loop which is quite trivial even for legacy CPUs as it's basic flight math equations which results in highly optimized code.

In terms of aero chips, basic is always better as you want a silicon that's tried and tested for decades to have a deep understanding of it's quirks and bugs so you know the code execution is reliable.

Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#27

Post by kuzehanka »

tanakachen wrote: post #17

As has been discussed on HN, this whole 737 MAX flaw is not a software problem. Boeing wants you to believe it is. The flaw is actually a physical design problem of the aircraft. Even if the software were to work perfectly, the plane is still flawed. The only real fix is not to fly the 737 MAX.

This is entirely false. Stop spreading disinformation.

Myth: the 737 MAX 8 is not inherently stable, has relaxed stability, etc. Fact: it's very much inherently stable.

Myth: the 737 MAX 8 is easier to stall than other planes. Fact: no it isn't.

The pitch-up characteristic of the MAX 8 is less strong than of e.g. the 757 and that plane flies just fine.

The actual problem with the MAX 8 is that Boeing added MCAS to allow it to share a type rating with the rest of the 737 family (allowing existing 737 pilots to fly the MAX 8 without additional training), and they fucked up MCAS. There's a number of solutions on the table, including removing rather than fixing MCAS and giving up the 737 type rating.

I am continuously astounded that even on HN people are focusing on news cycle bullshit about inherent instability instead of the actual issues with Boeing/FAA that caused this situation.

Evidence so far suggests that MCAS was originally a non-critical system that was found to be too weak during flight testing, and given significantly more pitch authority. For whatever reasons, this didn't trigger the reclassification of MCAS as a critical system and it all went downhill from there.

Here's a pair of sources slightly more credible than the bullshit news cycle:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCphqjYZxxzjNbONVmY-0J7Q

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwpHKudUkP5tNgmMdexB3ow

Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#28

Post by tanakachen »

pratap103 wrote: post #19
tanakachen wrote: post #17

As has been discussed on HN, this whole 737 MAX flaw is not a software problem. Boeing wants you to believe it is. The flaw is actually a physical design problem of the aircraft. Even if the software were to work perfectly, the plane is still flawed. The only real fix is not to fly the 737 MAX.

Or admit it's a hardware and aircraft design problem and go through the exponentially more expensive process of fixing it.

What’s that old quote...

“It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His Salary Depends Upon His Not Understanding It.”

Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#30

Post by thefounder »

kuzehanka wrote: post #27
tanakachen wrote: post #17

As has been discussed on HN, this whole 737 MAX flaw is not a software problem. Boeing wants you to believe it is. The flaw is actually a physical design problem of the aircraft. Even if the software were to work perfectly, the plane is still flawed. The only real fix is not to fly the 737 MAX.

This is entirely false. Stop spreading disinformation. Myth: the 737 MAX 8 is not inherently stable, has relaxed stability, etc. Fact: it's very much inherently stable. Myth: the 737 MAX 8 is easier to stall than other planes. Fact: no it isn't. The pitch-up characteristic of the MAX 8 is less strong than of e.g. the 757 and that plane flies just fine. The actual problem with the MAX 8 is that Boeing added MCAS to al…

The engines are too BIG for the airframe! Why people don't get it?
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