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FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

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Re: FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

#91
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is why the morning of the Snowden leaks will always be a fond memory for me. Anybody with experience in the kinetic aspects of the USG, who also had a solid understanding of what is technologically feasible, knew about that mass surveillance was a certainty. The Department of State's process for designating terrorist organizations is instructive here: groups are evaluated on both disposition and capability.…

It's good that people have some knowledge that the spying is happening now, but what has really changed? Everyone is still being spied upon, only now people seem to have a sense of inevitability about it.

It is actually a pretty long list of resulting changes. I'll describe a couple:

The German government became very interested in open source firmware, I've heard talk of RFPs requiring it from vendors - which compels vendors to put pressure on manufacturers, leading to fewer binary blobs.

Google became very interested in the power processor. Years ago their decommissioning process involved a hole being put through the Intel processor. For a long time I just assumed that there was a deal in place with Intel requiring a certified field destroy, but I'm now thinking that it was their distrust of Intel's backdooring. That may sound extreme, but nobody can say with certainty that whatever bs is occurring in ring -6 isn't caching private keys. Intel is now trying very hard to fool people into believing that they're going to be open sourcing their firmware - this will not happen.

As far as the social consequences, that is hard to say - I'm less plugged into popular culture than most. I'd be surprised if it didn't influence people's views of the government though, especially if they had voted for Hope and Change™. Greenwald timed and ordered the releases perfectly so that the government would predictably lie, only to be proven a liar the following news cycle. This pattern repeated a few times before they got the hint and STFU. And then there was the director of the NSA showing up at Defcon in a black t-shirt and jeans...

Re: FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

#92
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you drive on public roads, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy. False. Until the observer effect occurs, I - essentially - do not exist but as a record in a database. Someone who knows me, my car, or has the ability to ascertain who I am from identifiers on the vehicle, is able to collapse that sense of privacy but, until that happens, I am just one of the many of the nameless mass. In that, I have p…

> Your credulous, at best, belief in law enforcement's use of the system largely ignores the prevailing example given in the article Law enforcement will always be a compromise. There will always be some who abuse it, and there will always be a need for it (if you want a reasonable level of civilization anyway). It's not binary. It's not "Give up all freedom and rights for infinite security" vs "Give up absolutely no…

[deleted]

Re: FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

#93

Sensible regulations around what the government can do/not do in regards to things like facial recognition tech seems like it’s becoming more and more necessary. I am far more worried about privacy invasions/abuse by the government than I am by private companies that seem to get all the press (ie facebook). For the simple reason that 1) facebook can’t arrest me 2) facebook has no incentive other than targeting me wit…

Have you considered a couple of issues here? The first is that while companies may simply be in the business of harvesting massive amounts of information for advertising today, once they have that data they can use it to whatever end they like. From the legally gray such as manipulating elections to their benefit to the outright illegal such as using that information to gain leverage over politician, media, regulators, influential figures/celebrities, and so on. Kompromot is a term from the KGB era. Yet now private corporations such as Google and Facebook have many magnitudes more information on everybody than the KGB could have ever even imagined possible.

The second is as a peer comment mentioned: information these companies collect is subject to end up in government hands anyhow. People are so quick to forget about the Snowden leaks of things such as PRISM: [Program participation entailed NSA access to] "extensive, in-depth surveillance on live communications and stored information." Examples included email, video and voice chat, videos, photos, voice-over-IP chats, and more. [1] Some of the companies confirmed to be working with PRISM are: Google, Apple, Facebook, and Microsoft.

I think things like this fall of people's radar because it doesn't get mentioned in the media. But it doesn't get mentioned in the media for the same reason it was never mentioned prior to Snowden either. These programs have not gone anywhere and, if anything, have grown only more expansive. The NSA didn't set up an exobyte scale data storage center [2] on a whim. Everything you submit to a major corporation in the US is something you should equate to submitting to the US government as well.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center

Re: FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

#94
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you drive on public roads, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy. False. Until the observer effect occurs, I - essentially - do not exist but as a record in a database. Someone who knows me, my car, or has the ability to ascertain who I am from identifiers on the vehicle, is able to collapse that sense of privacy but, until that happens, I am just one of the many of the nameless mass. In that, I have p…

> Your credulous, at best, belief in law enforcement's use of the system largely ignores the prevailing example given in the article Law enforcement will always be a compromise. There will always be some who abuse it, and there will always be a need for it (if you want a reasonable level of civilization anyway). It's not binary. It's not "Give up all freedom and rights for infinite security" vs "Give up absolutely no…

> Law enforcement will always be a compromise.

The problem with the compromise argument is that it only ever goes one way. We had certain law enforcement capabilities in 1965 and civilization didn't collapse. Why would we expect it to collapse if they had exactly the same capabilities today?

Whenever this argument is used, it's always to add new invasions. Databases that were never needed before, facial recognition that was never needed before. Why are they suddenly needed now, just because we can? Moving in only one direction over time isn't balance, it's marching toward a cliff. Meanwhile anything that does improve privacy, like encryption, is used as an excuse for new police powers as well.

It isn't necessary for law enforcement to catch everybody. And they wont anyway. Which is fine, because 99% of their purpose is deterring people from committing serious crimes, which they can do well enough without any fancy new technology.

You don't actually have to catch fugitives as long as being a fugitive ruins your life sufficiently that hardly anybody is willing to do it.

Re: FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

#95
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is this particular development relevant? Well God forbid it ever comes to that, but there's probably 60 Million people with guns here, and most own more than one... so basically a gun for every man, woman and child; its a formidable defense against tyranny. I mean it's not like we won in Viet Nam, to name one armed conflict that didn't go our way.

>>so basically a gun for every man, woman and child; its a formidable defense against tyranny. No it isn't? I mean, I know it's a very common conservative fantasy, but if the federal government comes after you, they are doing so with tanks and helicopters, and your puny guns won't change the outcome. Vietnam is not a good analogy. Your average American is dumb, fat and undisciplined. The Viet Cong were none of those…

> Your average American is dumb, fat and undisciplined

We've asked you so many times to stop posting this and other kinds of flamebait to HN, and you've so often ignored our requests to stop, that I momentarily banned your account when I saw this.

On looking at your recent comment history, though, I saw that you mostly haven't been doing this lately (that's good), so I unbanned you. Please don't do it again, though, because if this becomes a pattern again there won't be much slack left to cut.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

#96
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>so basically a gun for every man, woman and child; its a formidable defense against tyranny. No it isn't? I mean, I know it's a very common conservative fantasy, but if the federal government comes after you, they are doing so with tanks and helicopters, and your puny guns won't change the outcome. Vietnam is not a good analogy. Your average American is dumb, fat and undisciplined. The Viet Cong were none of those…

> Your average American is dumb, fat and undisciplined. Hmmm... and yet we rule the World. Go figure ;)

Please don't respond to flamebait by taking it. That just makes this place worse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

#97
post #68
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

some comments are just common knowledge and don't require references...

I don't mean lacking in citations. I mean low-information, often snarky comments of the kind that grow like weeds on the internet. We're trying for better than those here.

If something is common knowledge, there is little curiosity in it, so it needn't be repeated on HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

#98
post #23

This line caught my attention: > The FBI said its system is 86 percent accurate at finding the right person if a search is able to generate a list of 50 possible matches, according to the GAO. But the FBI has not tested its system’s accuracy under conditions that are closer to normal, such as when a facial search returns only a few possible matches. What the GAO study[1] actually said: > However, we found that the te…

But also, no-one understands percentages. WaPo should really present this information as a probability tree or an icon array chart.

I'm not sure I can follow your thinking when you say that a probability tree is easier to understand than a percentage. Has this been broadly scientifically understood? Is this something you have found within your field of work?

Re: FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

#99

Sensible regulations around what the government can do/not do in regards to things like facial recognition tech seems like it’s becoming more and more necessary. I am far more worried about privacy invasions/abuse by the government than I am by private companies that seem to get all the press (ie facebook). For the simple reason that 1) facebook can’t arrest me 2) facebook has no incentive other than targeting me wit…

>Given the choice, I’ll take the lesser of two evils which is a company that is interested in knowing the things I buy and where I go, for the express purpose of selling better ads.

The choice is the crux of it. I'm not on Facebook, I choose not to have a "smartphone", I don't use free email or other web services that harvest my information and I avoid a variety of other activities that may offer every day conveniences at the sacrifice of my privacy to various corporations. I don't have this choice when it comes to the government.

We can debate exactly where the 4th amendment applies to prevent the government from hoovering up all our data so that they can track us all individually, in real time, and monitor all of our communications and interactions - but nobody can reasonably argue that the 4th amendment doesn't kick in at some point to prohibit this. Its always harder to claw back power the government has claimed than to stop them from claiming new ones. Its also the reason we need more transparency, so that we know exactly what information the government is harvesting and how closely we are being monitored and tracked.

Re: FBI, ICE using state driver’s license photos for facial-recognition searches

#100

This line caught my attention: > The FBI said its system is 86 percent accurate at finding the right person if a search is able to generate a list of 50 possible matches, according to the GAO. But the FBI has not tested its system’s accuracy under conditions that are closer to normal, such as when a facial search returns only a few possible matches. What the GAO study[1] actually said: > However, we found that the te…

Scientific integrity in forensic sciences isn't exactly a strong point for the FBI: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2015/04/fbis-flawed-fore...
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