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The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

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Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#421

Post by vbernat »

effie wrote: post #380
shmerl wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP explicitly mentioned Sway (based on wlroots), not Gnome (mutter). Besides, even Gnome can't handle XWayland with Nvidia today. And if you play games, especially in Wine, that's still a requirement. While Gnome developers bent under Nvidia's pressure, other compositor developers aren't interested in accommodating exceptions for blobs and wasting their resources on that. TL;DR: just ditch Nvidia and forget about all…

Well, they don't play as nice as AMD, but they do at least give you working drivers. They do have place for consumers, there are valid use cases for Nvidia on Linux, such as: 1) top performance available on the market; 2) off-the-shelf passive cooled 4K capable cards (GT 1030); 3) (significantly) better performance per watt and less noise for high-end cards. I still prefer AMD for their play-nice attitude with Linux…

I have run a GT 1030 with a pair of 4K displays for a few months and the performance is terrible (for a desktop usage). I don't know where the bottleneck is (PCI bandwidth maybe) but you should avoid this card. I have replaced it with an RX550 and I don't have any performance problem anymore. It is not passively cooled, but the fan can be stopped from software if you want.

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#422

Post by alextooter »

imtringued wrote: post #252
pmlnr wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a standard supported by nothing, that reminds me of xhtml2...

It is very condescending to label Intel, AMD and pretty much every other GPU vendor other than Nvidia as nothing.

It is true,intel and AMD's GPU can consider as nothing.

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#423

Post by aswellian »

southerndrift wrote: post #272
xorcist wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CADT development model is very real, but it's not really a good description of the Xorg situation. The most active Wayland developers are not only also Xorg developers but have been so for a very long time. They know their history. X11 has some fundamental problems. It's not fun using a modern desktop where it is impossible to sandbox individual applications. Firefox frequently processes untrusted data and is run…

Can't you use ssh and connect to localhost with the -Y option to sandbox an X app?

A bit more involved, but seems to achieve the desired result: https://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/handbook/RunSecureBrowser/

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#424

Post by clhodapp »

bitwize wrote: post #212
cwyers wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then since no one else can justify spending the resources to replace the entire Linux userland Well that's just it, though. Red Hat is spending the resources to maintain and build much of the Linux userland. And they are no longer willing to do so in a way that helps support the userlands for the BSDs or the buffet mentality of building the Linux userland. If people don't want to use the Red Hat userland, then they…

Meanwhile, 20 years ago on Slashdot... "Well that's just it, though, Microsoft is spending the resources to maintain and build the underlying standards of the PC ecosystem. And they are no longer willing to do so in a way that helps support Linux, the BSDs, or the bazaar mentality of open source. If people don't want to use Windows, then they _need_ to support an entire computing platform that resembles what they wan…

It seems to me that that is true, that it happened, and that it saw greatly varying levels of success for different use cases.

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#425

Post by CameronNemo »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #124
_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sysvinit for example is only an alternative to systemd the same way a SUV is an alternative to F1 Perhaps. But this is the same tired old argument that ignores the existence of any other init/daemon-manager aside from systemd. And I would use the same car metaphor for comparisons with some of the other options, esp. runit, except with systemd in the SUV slot (e.g. my runit systems all behave themselves; my systemd…

> Perhaps. But this is the same tired old argument that ignores the existence of any other init/daemon-manager aside from systemd. Do you mean openRC, s6 etc? They still all use bash scripts, (which as a result depend on the dev for quality and can vary quite a bit) vs systemd's clear, uniform service definitions. They don't provide much beyond starting services and are more like wrappers around sysvinit than anythin…

s6 is often used with execline, a stripped down scripting language that is highly performant.

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#426

Post by zzo38computer »

I don't really like Wayland, and I think X is better. There are some problems with X, and I made some ideas how to fix it, including getting rid of a lot of the extensions of the X protocol, but making now XBell is like XkbBell instead, moving many things out of the protocol, and also some other stuff.

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#427

Post by ibotty »

logicprog wrote: post #213
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As for the people complaining about Wayland possibly missing some of X's features, remember that it takes time for something to mature, to accrete features and fixes, and Wayland hasn't had that time yet. It has been a decade, precisely how long does it need to catch up? I ask because from what I can tell it is still missing features that were standard in Windows Vista in 2008, when that OS switched to DWM and WDDM…

If you're talking about screen recording and screenshots, fair point, except that that lack is a result of designing for security.

But there are ways to capture the screen. For a while now. But safer.

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#428

Post by zzo38computer »

logicprog wrote: post #213
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As for the people complaining about Wayland possibly missing some of X's features, remember that it takes time for something to mature, to accrete features and fixes, and Wayland hasn't had that time yet. It has been a decade, precisely how long does it need to catch up? I ask because from what I can tell it is still missing features that were standard in Windows Vista in 2008, when that OS switched to DWM and WDDM…

If you're talking about screen recording and screenshots, fair point, except that that lack is a result of designing for security.

My own ideas (for improving X system, although maybe it could be used with Wayland too, I don't know) is using proxies to correct those kind of problems.

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#429

Post by sprash »

wmf wrote: post #233
sprash wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No not really similar. It is basically a raw video that transfers the full window content over the wire. X11 is capable of drawing primitives. Even though the most popular toolkits (Gtk, QT) sadly did not use them, those who did (e.g. Athena, Tcl/Tk) worked perfectly over the network, even modem lines. If Wayland would contain modern drawing primitives like those that Cairo offers which could easily be serialized, we…

It is basically a raw video that transfers the full window content over the wire. Because that's more efficient. If Wayland would contain modern drawing primitives like those that Cairo offers which could easily be serialized, we would have real network transparency even over slow low bandwidth connections. Nope, drawing commands for a modern UI are more bytes than the window contents. This is a deeply counterintuiti…

Any proof for this? I don't believe you. Every SVG is smaller than the rendered PNG counterpart. And SVG is a really inefficient way to serialize drawing commands.

Also including drawing into your Compositor (like Windows and MacOS do) gives you additional infinite scaling for free which would solve the multi dpi monitor problem.

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#430

Post by simion314 »

microcolonel wrote: post #361
simion314 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but you are missing this points: 1 the expensive(this is relative) card works fine, do I throw it or donate it without any good reason(switching to wayland could wait IMO until this card is too obsolete) 2 Buying a new GPU is a big investment for some people,those money could be used to replace an old low quality display or other stuff.

> Not OP, but you are missing this points: No, I'm not missing these points. It's just that nobody except NVIDIA can do anything about that, so I'm suggesting things you could do. If you can't get an AMD or Intel or Qualcomm (unofficial) or Broadcom (or soon ARM) GPU, and you won't (or can't, again because of NVIDIA being antisocial) run Nouveau instead of the NVIDIA proprietary drivers, and you're not willing to por…

OK, there are a group of people where at the time we bought NVIDIA it was not a mistake, it was the better card for Linux Desktop, at that time AMD open source GPU was bad and the Catalyst proprietary one was terrible in performance, Steam games were only supporting NVIDIA.

Sure when I will need to buy a new card I will again have to check what is the best one for Linux and then I will probably get an AMD card again( I had AMD before NVIDIA on desktop and Laptop and back then it was a big disappointment, including the fact the AMD Catalyst drop support for my 1 year old cheap Laptop)

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