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The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

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Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#81

Post by PlutoIsAPlanet »

simion314 wrote: post #70
PlutoIsAPlanet wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Windows managers? Sway/wlroots. > Consistent window decorations? This is up to individual compositors and toolkits. > Thousands of applications Like what? Any that rely on X specific behaviour run via XWayland. > Consistent performance Wayland in theory should be faster than X, but again, this depends on compositor. > Redshift Gnome has night-light on Wayland already. KDE I think just added it. > Global keybindings…

>But I think it's a bonus that applications can't listen into keys when they're not in focus. There are applications that do not run as a window, in present I have a global shortcuts that run a bash or python script, I know I am a power user so I will need a way to whitelist my use case.

Then that should be done through a mechanism provided by the desktop environment.

GNOME and I'm pretty sure KDE too has a method to set custom keyboard shortcuts that can execute commands.

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#82

Post by iso-8859-1 »

kabwj wrote: post #66
snazz wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not Wayland’s job, as I understand. GTK3 does it, I think Qt does it, and I’m not sure about anything else. Firefox has issues with menu positioning but works fine. Because X11 applications still talk using the X protocol to XWayland, which doesn’t handle DPI scaling, there’s no guarantee of it working.

Applications (and their toolkits) should be able to signal to Wayland whether they can handle DPI scaling or not, and if they can’t, Wayland should forcibly resize the windows (ie paint them bigger) like Windows does. If something as basic as this doesn’t work...

Do you realize that Wayland is a protocol and it involves a compositor (which is NOT called Wayland)?

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#83

Post by PlutoIsAPlanet »

zzzcpan wrote: post #68
PlutoIsAPlanet wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Windows managers? Sway/wlroots. > Consistent window decorations? This is up to individual compositors and toolkits. > Thousands of applications Like what? Any that rely on X specific behaviour run via XWayland. > Consistent performance Wayland in theory should be faster than X, but again, this depends on compositor. > Redshift Gnome has night-light on Wayland already. KDE I think just added it. > Global keybindings…

I always wonder how people use their linux desktops when they claim that wayland works. Why aren't you using anything like wmctrl, xdotool, xprop, xbindkeys, xterm? Or non-Gnome DE? Don't you need custom keybindings for multiple keyboard layouts with caps/scroll led indication? Don't use wacom devices or anything like it? Wayland ecosystem is literally decades away from being usable and it's very unlikely to survive…

It's already usable. I use it every day.

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#84

Post by emersion »

okasaki wrote: post #17
voldacar wrote: post #7

Are there any major x11 features that wayland lacks other than remote operation over a network? I think at one point it locked the refresh rate to 60hz, has that been changed?

Where do we even begin? Windows managers? Consistent window decorations? Thousands of applications? Consistent performance? Redshift? Global keybindings?

(Only replying to points that make sense to me)

>Consistent window decorations?

We have a protocol for this for compositors that want to support it: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/tre...

>Redshift?

Works on GNOME, KDE and Sway.

>Global keybindings?

We prefer to let users configure those in their compositor's configuration file.

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#85

Post by dmix »

csande17 wrote: post #79

I would use Wayland, but the most actively-developed tiling window manager, sway, doesn't work with the NVIDIA graphics card I own. And come to think of it, isn't that a really weird problem to have? On X, the compositor (responsible for actually drawing all the windows on the screen) and the window manager (responsible for deciding how to arrange the windows and what their title bars/borders should look like) can be…

Which NVIDIA graphics card do you own? I’m surprised Sway doesn’t support certain graphics cards.

I believe the goal of wlroots is to solve this problem:

> wlroots provides backends that abstract the underlying display and input hardware

https://github.com/swaywm/wlroots

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#86

Post by traverseda »

notatoad wrote: post #63
nextos wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My concern at the moment with Wayland (and Systemd, Pulseaudio, DBus and a few others) is that Linux is loosing modularity. All these dependencies seem to be getting more or less mandatory. Running a distribution without them is getting harder. Given that they are all getting pushed by the same group of people at Red Hat, it is concerning as they are effectively gaining control of the Linux userland. And given that t…

>they are effectively gaining control of the Linux userland. but they aren't gaining control by some dastardly power grab, they're gaining control because they're the only ones actually putting in the work. They're simply doing what they think is best for their product, while at the same time contributing their work back to the open source world. That is good, that's how it's supposed to work. The only reason they're…

It seems like a lot of those projects just aren't interested in accepting pull-requests from outsiders.

If they were more willing to compromise and cooperate I don't think they'd catch nearly this much flac.

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#87

Post by emersion »

kabwj wrote: post #37

Can Wayland currently handle several monitors with different DPI? And by “handle” I mean, being able to resize (blurry, I know) windows that are not DPI-aware transparently when I move them between monitors. What Windows has been able to do for years now.

Yes. Note that this isn't really possible with X11.

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#88

Post by emersion »

csande17 wrote: post #79

I would use Wayland, but the most actively-developed tiling window manager, sway, doesn't work with the NVIDIA graphics card I own. And come to think of it, isn't that a really weird problem to have? On X, the compositor (responsible for actually drawing all the windows on the screen) and the window manager (responsible for deciding how to arrange the windows and what their title bars/borders should look like) can be…

NVIDIA doesn't support GBM, which is the standard for buffer allocation. Use nouveau.

>The last issue could be solved with a reusable library that provided basic compositor functionality for window managers.

This is pretty much what wlroots is.

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#89

Post by ForHackernews »

zzzcpan wrote: post #68
PlutoIsAPlanet wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Windows managers? Sway/wlroots. > Consistent window decorations? This is up to individual compositors and toolkits. > Thousands of applications Like what? Any that rely on X specific behaviour run via XWayland. > Consistent performance Wayland in theory should be faster than X, but again, this depends on compositor. > Redshift Gnome has night-light on Wayland already. KDE I think just added it. > Global keybindings…

I always wonder how people use their linux desktops when they claim that wayland works. Why aren't you using anything like wmctrl, xdotool, xprop, xbindkeys, xterm? Or non-Gnome DE? Don't you need custom keybindings for multiple keyboard layouts with caps/scroll led indication? Don't use wacom devices or anything like it? Wayland ecosystem is literally decades away from being usable and it's very unlikely to survive…

I've been using Wayland as my...whatever it is (display server, window manager, thing) exclusively for the last year or so. I did hit this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/1... but it was (eventually) fixed.

As for those other things you mention (xprop, etc.), I don't even know what they are, so I assume I've never used them.

I think you underestimate the degree to which desktop Linux users just want a working system with sane defaults. Maybe you personally value having all the knobs to twiddle, but I'd suggest you're an outlier.

Re: The death watch for the X Window System has probably started

#90

Post by Sir_Cmpwn »

mort96 wrote: post #76
nextos wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My concern at the moment with Wayland (and Systemd, Pulseaudio, DBus and a few others) is that Linux is loosing modularity. All these dependencies seem to be getting more or less mandatory. Running a distribution without them is getting harder. Given that they are all getting pushed by the same group of people at Red Hat, it is concerning as they are effectively gaining control of the Linux userland. And given that t…

It sounds weird to me to claim the Wayland ecosystem is less modular than the X ecosystem. With X, you're depending on one huge monolithic display server implementation; with Wayland, you can switch display server at will and they all conform to a common protocol. I get the concern that most of the functionality which used to be in separate programs is now bundled with the Wayland compositor, and I used to share it,…

Wayland is more modular in other ways, too. We went from IPC-based modularity with separate processes towards modularity via relegating different tasks to different libraries. Like being able to use libinput and libdrm and EGL and libwayland all separately makes for a much more modular stack than putting it all in X.
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