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Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

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Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#11
post #7
post #3

I have no answer to your question, but I can at least offer some sympathy and confirmation. I've been looking for a remote position for months and have been eliminated from consideration many times because I didn't have "X" months experience with specific technology "Y" - which could be easily learned by _any_ experienced developer. It's baffling ... and deflating.

To defend some of this: 1) Why pay someone to learn? In both terms of money and other devs time being sunk into helping you learn. 2) If you do know "tool X" and its a primary tool then its a lot easier to quickly evaluate whether or not standards will align. Personally I don't mind hiring Jr Developers that cost less, are mold-able, and are willing to put in extra effort. Could any experienced dev lean it? Sure... b…

I have had great success hiring junior developers and molding them as described above. This turns the interview process into learning about the person and their goals and what drives them instead of what do you already know. Because let’s be honest, most development work can be learned fairly quickly for 95% of the work out there that needs to be done. For the other 5%, hirer a senior person who has that specific experience. Not necessarily experience in that tech, just experience solving the need you have. Performance, scaling, complex math, etc.

Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#12
I have come to see trying to find a job is a lot like dating. You see the company for the first time "oh look how pretty. We would be perfect together!"

Then you start talking and they ask you a bunch of really stupid questions. The voice in your head starts telling you something is off.

Then they start testing you and giving you the run around. In dating this is known as playing games.

Just like in dating it's time to wake up and realize they are showing you who they truly are. Ignore at your own peril!

Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#13

why would you choose to work remote - are you retired? no jobs available in your immediate area?

Why do you ask that?

I work partial remote and every day I go to the office I wish I was fully remote... not because I hate the office (I love it, and really enjoy my co-workers) but because I hate commuting.

Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#14
post #9

The process is aimed at fulfilling a business need that they are experiencing. Unless you know everything going on internally, it is difficult to judge whether the hiring process is bad, or simply not matched to your expectations. As to why it seems fearful, there is a huge price to pay if you make a bad hire in any company, but it is exaggerated when you make a bad remote hire, even more so if they have never worked…

Your comment is chock full of flawed and patently false ideas. Firstly, I have yet to encounter a company with a hiring process that is actually, provably, repeatedly tied to any of that company’s business needs. Designing a working hiring process is harder than the software work that the hiring is for. It’s no surprise that results usually seem arbitrary and ineffective. Secondly, and following up on my first critiq…

Having just gone through the interview process with a very well known tech company, as someone who is honestly pretty terrible at interviewing, I think some companies actually get it. It's really a matter of the interviewer at play. Two of the phases I went through really aligned with the company's needs. I was interviewing for a SRE position, and in one phase they gave me a broken EC2 instance that had been manually configured and asked me to get it back up and running. That's a legit task that I've had to do in daily work for years, because there's ALWAYS going to be someone that does a quick hack to get something working and forgets to productionize it. It was a completely contrived box that didn't actually serve customers, but still a good exercise. In another phase, they had me completely blind fire design some infrastructure (without a complete picture of what the current state of the application is) to lead toward a scalable solution for a real problem they're facing. While, yes, that's basically them getting me to do unpaid work, since I didn't put hands on a keyboard during it and really just talked it through with them, I feel like that was a great exercise in seeing how I thought and could work with a member of the team.

There's no truly bulletproof solution to interviewing, because the needs of every org are different, and the skills of interviewers are rarely nurtured to the point of usefulness. Sometimes you just have to luck out and get a good interview.

Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#15
I am building a product/startup [1] to address some of the problems you mention, and as a result, I've been talking to hiring teams at several companies, so I can give you some reasons why the processes are bad.

* Hiring is a marketplace, and supply/demand is not always balanced, so most issues related to job search/hiring is due to this.

* When a company posts an ad for a job, they usually receive about 150-200 applicants within 2 weeks, thanks to job boards, LinkedIn etc. Unless it is for specific high-skilled jobs, in which case, they receive hardly any applicants at all.

* Most of the applicants are usually not a match for the job, but given the number of applicants, recruiters rely on resumes, social profiles etc to shortlist about 20 applicants.

* Tests and assignments are quick means to filter, hence their popularity.

* Not much of an incentive to keep applicants posted at every step, plus, managing communication with a few hundred applicants for multiple positions is hard - so you're most likely to receive only automated communication from the hiring team.

I believe that having a clear specification of the job, that can be checked/validated with applicants is critical to ensuring a smooth, fast interviewing process.

[1] - Shameless plug to my startup (in beta) - https://www.interviewpass.co. If any of you are interested in using InterviewPass in your hiring, drop me an email at suresh@interviewpass.co - happy to help set it up for you.

Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#17
Most were looking for exactly one type with one set of experiences. Anything outside of that and you are filtered out.

In my experience this rings true for senior roles and less so for new college grads.

Companies seem afraid to hire thinking there is a slightly better/cheaper option around the corner.

I can see why perhaps a candidate receiving a rejection may think this, but in the companies I’ve worked at this has never been the case. It’s always been “it’s really tough finding talent, not paying talent”.

The take home assignments with random marking standards. Tests can matter, ui could matter, api structure could matter, documentation/choice of framework, speed, style all could matter but you rarely know which matters to whom and rarely have time to do it all and even if you did everything perfectly a lot of the time no one even looks or the reviewer expects the code to look like how they might write it.

A fair reviewer recognizes the limitations of these take home exercises. While there are many ways to perform a take-home successfully, there are more ways to show that you aren’t qualified for the role. Not all that pass will be right for the job, but most who fail aren’t.

Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#18
post #7
post #3

I have no answer to your question, but I can at least offer some sympathy and confirmation. I've been looking for a remote position for months and have been eliminated from consideration many times because I didn't have "X" months experience with specific technology "Y" - which could be easily learned by _any_ experienced developer. It's baffling ... and deflating.

To defend some of this: 1) Why pay someone to learn? In both terms of money and other devs time being sunk into helping you learn. 2) If you do know "tool X" and its a primary tool then its a lot easier to quickly evaluate whether or not standards will align. Personally I don't mind hiring Jr Developers that cost less, are mold-able, and are willing to put in extra effort. Could any experienced dev lean it? Sure... b…

Do you work with such an extremely static stack that it requires no further learning?

I would say that one of the most important qualities a developer can have is the ability to learn.

Perhaps, you expect all the learning to be done outside of work?

Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#19
In a nutshell: they aren't.

The economics of it are that in many places in the world, it is extremely difficult to fire an employee. Getting rid of an underperformer can take time, effort, and exposes the company to liability if the termination can be construed as relating to the employee being in a protected class (e.g. can't fire someone because she's a woman). Let's assume that it's a SF startup willing to play a little fast and loose and they aren't concerned with severance packages or the legal issues. They still put time and effort into training a new engineer. That's months of work that is potentially wasted.

All of that means that companies are incredibly risk-averse when it comes to hiring, and will pass on someone who looks even slightly wrong to them. It also means that the process is inherently random as a company will pass on someone they aren't sure of _even if they would have been a good hire_ just because they aren't certain. However, this also means that a lot of companies rely on self-selection in their hiring pool. Look for people they already know, from the same backgrounds, or are willing to pass through a series of arbitrary tests.

In short, it's like democracy. It's the worst form of government, except for all the others we've tried.

Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#20
post #15

I am building a product/startup [1] to address some of the problems you mention, and as a result, I've been talking to hiring teams at several companies, so I can give you some reasons why the processes are bad. * Hiring is a marketplace, and supply/demand is not always balanced, so most issues related to job search/hiring is due to this. * When a company posts an ad for a job, they usually receive about 150-200 appl…

The problem as I see it is that good applicants don't bother with job boards. When you have recruiters banging on your door and begging to handle all the details for you (and provide proper communication) it's no wonder candidates don't bother applying. That, however, means the expectation is that job board candidates are bad and desperate. So companies will filter them more aggressively than recruiter candidates. So candidates now have even more incentive to go with recruiters since it actually gives them a better chance to get hired.
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