Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#1

Post by wolco » Sun, Jul 07, 2019, 2:12 PM UTC

I started looking at remote positions two months ago. I've had the chance to be part of a number of different hiring processes. I had a lot of take home projects, crazy math tests, some coding tests, interviews over various video platforms. I've had rejections, rejections that turned into further interviews.

In the end I found what I was looking for. It just seems the hiring processes overall is flawed in many ways.

Most were looking for exactly one type with one set of experiences. Anything outside of that and you are filtered out.

Companies seem afraid to hire thinking there is a slightly better/cheaper option around the corner.

There is a fear to pull the trigger compared to local companies. Afraid to take a chance on obvious candidates. Someone with x amount of years in a language but not with a specific framework version. It's like the ability to learn even the smallest thing isn't considered.

Multiple unnecessary rounds of interviews/tests/assignments/group hiring. The long the process ensures the best candidates go elsewhere or are filtered out.

The random unrelated tests.

The take home assignments with random marking standards. Tests can matter, ui could matter, api structure could matter, documentation/choice of framework, speed, style all could matter but you rarely know which matters to whom and rarely have time to do it all and even if you did everything perfectly a lot of the time no one even looks or the reviewer expects the code to look like how they might write it.

Why are the processes so bad?

Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#2

Post by codingdave » Sun, Jul 07, 2019, 2:21 PM UTC

The process is aimed at fulfilling a business need that they are experiencing. Unless you know everything going on internally, it is difficult to judge whether the hiring process is bad, or simply not matched to your expectations. As to why it seems fearful, there is a huge price to pay if you make a bad hire in any company, but it is exaggerated when you make a bad remote hire, even more so if they have never worked remote before, and you need to bring them up to speed on how it works. There may be fear, but again, it is business-driven.

Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#3

Post by mastry » Sun, Jul 07, 2019, 2:25 PM UTC

I have no answer to your question, but I can at least offer some sympathy and confirmation. I've been looking for a remote position for months and have been eliminated from consideration many times because I didn't have "X" months experience with specific technology "Y" - which could be easily learned by _any_ experienced developer. It's baffling ... and deflating.

Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#4

Post by kentrado » Sun, Jul 07, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

They only get as picky as their options. Remote companies get exponentially more candidates so they can make them jump like monkeys with impunity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1WiCGq-PcY

Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#5

Post by dlphn___xyz » Sun, Jul 07, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

why would you choose to work remote - are you retired? no jobs available in your immediate area?

Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#6

Post by jchallis » Sun, Jul 07, 2019, 2:43 PM UTC

Two thoughts.

First, most companies will look for a remote person only after exhausting their local labor pool. If someone remote has to devote their initial months to learning with no advantage over someone local learning the same content, why not go with the added benefit of hiring someone local.

Second, many companies have a fallback person in place who can almost meet the need - maybe they have x amount of years in a language, right attitude, etc. This process is only to see if you are better than their fallback option. The distressing answer sounds to be rarely.

Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#7

Post by mharroun » Sun, Jul 07, 2019, 2:45 PM UTC

mastry wrote: post #3

I have no answer to your question, but I can at least offer some sympathy and confirmation. I've been looking for a remote position for months and have been eliminated from consideration many times because I didn't have "X" months experience with specific technology "Y" - which could be easily learned by _any_ experienced developer. It's baffling ... and deflating.

To defend some of this:

1) Why pay someone to learn? In both terms of money and other devs time being sunk into helping you learn.

2) If you do know "tool X" and its a primary tool then its a lot easier to quickly evaluate whether or not standards will align.

Personally I don't mind hiring Jr Developers that cost less, are mold-able, and are willing to put in extra effort. Could any experienced dev lean it? Sure... but its more costly and often ends up in a "I have now studied X for Y weeks, we do X wrong I refuse to do X your way."

Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#8

Post by leerob » Sun, Jul 07, 2019, 2:45 PM UTC

My opinion - Why is the process so bad? Hiring technical talent is flat out difficult. Even for the best companies. Thus, attempt after attempt has been made to figure out "the right way" to screen candidates to prevent bad hires.

It started with algorithmic interviews. Then, we tried take home assignments. Now, lots of companies are doing pair programming type scenarios including a code review for a more accurate representation of a day on the job. Still, there hasn't been this silver bullet companies are looking for to solve their hiring woes.

I don't know the solve. There's also a large problem with those doing the interviewing being either untrained or unempathetic to the candidates.

Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#9

Post by maxaf » Sun, Jul 07, 2019, 2:46 PM UTC

codingdave wrote: post #2

The process is aimed at fulfilling a business need that they are experiencing. Unless you know everything going on internally, it is difficult to judge whether the hiring process is bad, or simply not matched to your expectations. As to why it seems fearful, there is a huge price to pay if you make a bad hire in any company, but it is exaggerated when you make a bad remote hire, even more so if they have never worked…

Your comment is chock full of flawed and patently false ideas. Firstly, I have yet to encounter a company with a hiring process that is actually, provably, repeatedly tied to any of that company’s business needs. Designing a working hiring process is harder than the software work that the hiring is for. It’s no surprise that results usually seem arbitrary and ineffective.

Secondly, and following up on my first critique, an ineffective hiring process usually leads to the hiring of candidates who are good at interviewing, not at the actual work. These are the literal “bad hires” that should have been sifted out by the hiring process.

Re: Ask HN: Why are hiring processes flawed and testing random standards?

#10

Post by lazyant » Sun, Jul 07, 2019, 2:49 PM UTC

Hiring process in our industry has lots of problems and discussing them is one of HN's favourite topics. For remote the bar is higher, simply because not everybody is able to be effective working remotely, so companies are more weary about remote workers.

For ex my company does hire remote but only senior and more exceptional candidates.