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Google Engineer bails out student in jail

neil.fraser.name

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Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#111
post #109
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is slave labor. The US constitution bans slavery except for prisoners. Here is the text of the Thirteenth Amendment, Section 1: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” – edit: To add a bit more substance, here is an article about the recent Georgi…

to me that means that labor has to be ordered by the judge as part of the punishment

That’s what I thought when I first read the text but apparently not. Quote from the article I linked: “In light of its plain text, the Thirteenth Amendment has generally been interpreted to bar legal challenges to unpaid or minimally paid prison labor.”

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, somehow, over the last 20 years the crime rate in the US has dropped tremendously. Every single one of those prisoners was convicted of some crime or another by a comparatively just court system. The underlying problem--criminality in some American cultures--is difficult and rather unique to the United States. Other rich countries are more culturally homogenous and hence suffer less criminality, though that'…

You got downvoted because people disagreed with you, not because you didn't elegantly state a perfectly valid perspective.

His perspective isn't valid. "The court system" actually consists of many parts:

--the legislature who chose to make particular laws

--the police who chose to enforce particular laws

--the prosecutors who chose to pursue particular cases

--the courts who adjudicated the final case

Every one of those four groups is biased against particular groups in the U.S.A. Arguing that the courts alone are "comparatively just" is not only false (race is a notable bias in the courts themselves), it neglects all the other factors that are also biased.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, somehow, over the last 20 years the crime rate in the US has dropped tremendously. Every single one of those prisoners was convicted of some crime or another by a comparatively just court system. The underlying problem--criminality in some American cultures--is difficult and rather unique to the United States. Other rich countries are more culturally homogenous and hence suffer less criminality, though that'…

Many of those crimes are drug crimes, which are only a crime because we've chosen to make them so. It's not all that hard to change a law to make a certain group of people whose habits you dislike criminals.

All crimes are crimes because we decided to make them so.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#115
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, let's consider (a) and (c). We're comparing statistics to other Western countries, and other Western countries have largely the same criminal laws the US does. Some of them legalize prostitution more than the US does, but everything else (violent crimes, property crimes, drug crimes) that's illegal in the US is illegal in the countries we're comparing the US with. So that rules out (a) for the purpose of this d…

> Some of them legalize prostitution more than the US does, but everything else (violent crimes, property crimes, drug crimes) that's illegal in the US is illegal in the countries we're comparing the US with. So that rules out (a) for the purpose of this discussion. I'm not so sure about that. You'll not go to jail for possession of small quantities of drugs in Denmark, but you might in the US?

Absolutely! I'm not going to throw around a figure I'm not sure of, but there are a stunning amount of people in American prisons for non-violent possession charges.

What a horrendous farce!

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#116
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to make it look like that when you ignore leading and lagging indicators. Someone might be in prison today because of a crime they committed in 1990. Obviously, their being in prison has nothing to do with the 2010 crime rate and a little bit to do with the 1990 crime rate. In 1990, the US did have higher criminality! My point, though, was that it's not a controlled experiment to compare the US and the Neth…

Criminals are created by (a) laws, (b) their transgression, and (c) their enforcement. You seem to think that the whole issue is in (b) - that there's something about the US that causes more people to act unlawfully, to transgress. Have you considered other possibilities, such as unjust laws, or unequal application of laws? Besides that, there's social issues, whereby subgroups are disadvantaged and have fewer opport…

It's certainly the case that (b) is a major role. Forget about convictions - lets just look at crimes. The US murder rate is 5/100,000 people, Britain, Denmark and similar countries have about 1/100,000 people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...

The reason why we are different from much of Europe isn't a secret, it's just taboo to discuss. Most of our crime is confined to a small subset of our population and this subset is mostly absent from Europe.

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_informati...

(I'm focusing on murder because while things like drugs might be counted differently between the US and Britain, dead bodies with knife holes probably aren't.)

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#117
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be accusing me of racism rather than offering a counterargument. Did I misread you? Cultural homogeneity and its effects on crime transcend race. European immigration to the US during the 19th and 20th centuries were linked to crime as well. Usually, the dominant cultures in a heterogenous society will exclude and oppress minority populations, which leads to poverty and desperation. The problem really is…

That link seems suspect to me. India is rife with crime. Daily life , even for rich people, involves lots of activities that would be crimes in a Western country, particularly official corruption. Anyway, you spoke in terms of "criminality in some American cultures", which sounds like a euphemism, since you neglected to name them. Although you followed it up with your hetereogenity thesis I (like many readers) was al…

Still, anecdotally speaking, as a Canadian I find the racism in America to be pretty breathtaking. White Americans, whether liberal or conservative, take it as a given that there's always some part of the city dominated by blacks where gunfire is heard at night and the cops are afraid to go. If you probe even a little bit you find that most white Americans, even nominally liberal ones, think blacks have lower capacities than they do. This seems to me, with my Canadian attitudes, like a shocking abandonment of a large part of your citizenry.

Wow, so you just did what Americans are always accused of doing - paint large groups of people with one giant brush.

True racism in America I think has shrunk considerably. The problem is that racism is now commonly used to label any not so nice statistics about any given group of people. Years ago when Bill Cosby pointed out that strong families raised better kids he was called racist. He was just looking at the facts that over 1/2 of the single parent families out there are black[1], and kids from single parent families generally don't do as well as those from a 2 parent family.

When it comes to bad areas in large cities nearly every city has at least one such area, although racial groups may differ. There used to be places in LA where simply wearing a blue or red shirt will get you shot. This is not something made up or in the minds of white people. Even when I lived in a smallish city it had streets or areas that even police avoided. Heck, even my black friends avoided the area.

I also strongly disagree that 'most white Americans' think blacks have lower capacities than they do. That's complete BS. I don't know anyone who thinks that, and I certainly don't think that is true.

[1] http://family.jrank.org/pages/1574/Single-Parent-Families-De...

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#118

When I've heard mention of Neil Fraser in the past I've thought of his awesome MobWrite project. But now I'll think of what he did for this kid and his family. Makes one think about what one wants to be known for.

Neil is one of the world's quietly great people. I had the good fortune of knowing him in high school, and working with him at my first job (Ingenia Communications, running Canada's SchoolNet). He's always been an alloy of incredible intellect, diligent attention to detail, and calm kindness. Every time I come across his work and thinking, I get inspired (and humbled) anew.

I hope my daughter grows up in a world with a few more Neil Frasers.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#119
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criminals are created by (a) laws, (b) their transgression, and (c) their enforcement. You seem to think that the whole issue is in (b) - that there's something about the US that causes more people to act unlawfully, to transgress. Have you considered other possibilities, such as unjust laws, or unequal application of laws? Besides that, there's social issues, whereby subgroups are disadvantaged and have fewer opport…

It's certainly the case that (b) is a major role. Forget about convictions - lets just look at crimes. The US murder rate is 5/100,000 people, Britain, Denmark and similar countries have about 1/100,000 people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... The reason why we are different from much of Europe isn't a secret, it's just taboo to discuss. Most of our crime is confined to a small subset o…

> The US murder rate is 5/100,000 people, Britain, Denmark and similar countries have about 1/100,000 people.

Depends which crimes you look at. Britain, for example, has a higher overall rate of violent crime than the US.

Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail

#120
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That link seems suspect to me. India is rife with crime. Daily life , even for rich people, involves lots of activities that would be crimes in a Western country, particularly official corruption. Anyway, you spoke in terms of "criminality in some American cultures", which sounds like a euphemism, since you neglected to name them. Although you followed it up with your hetereogenity thesis I (like many readers) was al…

Still, anecdotally speaking, as a Canadian I find the racism in America to be pretty breathtaking. White Americans, whether liberal or conservative, take it as a given that there's always some part of the city dominated by blacks where gunfire is heard at night and the cops are afraid to go. If you probe even a little bit you find that most white Americans, even nominally liberal ones, think blacks have lower capacit…

I hear gunshots in my North Portland neighborhood - in one weekend 3 people were shot and killed this last summer. My neighborhood is the predominant black neighborhood in Portland. Now, I don't believe it's black/white but driven instead by poverty and lack of education, however these areas exist. Granted, even though I have heard gunshots and people have been shot I still consider this neighborhood relatively safe. I don't live in the "real hood" like you'll find in Chicago, LA etc, and the cops certainly aren't afraid to be here (they dropped a precinct a few blocks away to help with the crime rate).
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