You can talk about the privatization of the penal system as yielding degenerate incentives but ultimately it's up to the police on the streets to get them into the system. If there's no dead body, damaged/missing property or even an aggrieved person (as in this case) what problem are the police trying to solve by capriciously jailing people? What's the incentive here?
Google Engineer bails out student in jail
81–90 of 202 posts
Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's easy to make it look like that when you ignore leading and lagging indicators. Someone might be in prison today because of a crime they committed in 1990. Obviously, their being in prison has nothing to do with the 2010 crime rate and a little bit to do with the 1990 crime rate. In 1990, the US did have higher criminality! My point, though, was that it's not a controlled experiment to compare the US and the Neth…
Criminals are created by (a) laws, (b) their transgression, and (c) their enforcement. You seem to think that the whole issue is in (b) - that there's something about the US that causes more people to act unlawfully, to transgress. Have you considered other possibilities, such as unjust laws, or unequal application of laws? Besides that, there's social issues, whereby subgroups are disadvantaged and have fewer opport…
(c) doesn't create criminals so much as it creates prisoners. (c) is bounded by (b) in one respect, but in another respect, you can unjustly change aspects of (c) through longer sentences. There is evidence of this, if you look at some of the differences in sentencing between crack and powder cocaine.
The social issues you cite are probably a big part of (b), though. It's easier for these disadvantaged subgroups to arise when you have cultural heterogeneity (since the society has to have some way of distinguishing a subgroup in order to disadvantage it) but there's definitely room to say the US has answered those challenges poorly throughout history.
Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
It could be because of higher crime than the average Western European country. Imprisonment is a lagging indicator, of course, so the US crime rate would have to have been higher than the average Western European crime rate 10, 20, 30 years ago, rather than today necessarily.
Well, for instance[1] shows that the violent crime rate has been 2.5 to 3.5 times as large as in Canada between 1980 and 2000. That still leaves a factor of 2 to be explained. The other statistics in this report only makes the difference in incarceration rate harder to explain. The most common explanation I have heard is that in the US, people that are accused are both prosecuted and convicted more often. It seems ex…
Big complex problems have big and complex sets of causes. Higher actual crime is not an outlandish partial cause of a higher prison population, even if it isn't a complete explanation.
Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
And yet, somehow, over the last 20 years the crime rate in the US has dropped tremendously. Every single one of those prisoners was convicted of some crime or another by a comparatively just court system. The underlying problem--criminality in some American cultures--is difficult and rather unique to the United States. Other rich countries are more culturally homogenous and hence suffer less criminality, though that'…
And yet, somehow, over the last 20 years the crime rate in the US has dropped tremendously. Crime rates in all Western countries have dropped over the last 20 years. More interestingly, the crime rate in the US does not significantly differ from that in other countries[1]. Even taking the statistics from [1] at face value (they are probably skewed by various different definitions for 'crime'), The Netherlands has the…
According to the crime statistics for The Netherlands the rape victims rate is 0.8% versus 0.4% for the united states [1] (its definition being: "People victimized by sexual assault (as a % of the total population)". However looking at the rapes per capita[2] The Netherlands has 0.1 per 1000 vs 0.3 for the US.
Additionally the murder rate in the US is about 5 times higher than in The Netherlands[3]. The Dutch rate is without attempts, but still I doubt if it would get even close to that in the US.
[1] http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_vic-crime-rape-vic...
[2] http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes...
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...
Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
The '25%' number is a red herring and not worth debating. The US has over 6 times the number of inmates (per capita) as the average Western European country[1][2]. How could that be, other than because of a seriously fubared justice system? [1] http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-pris... [2] http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r234.pdf
It could be because of higher crime than the average Western European country. Imprisonment is a lagging indicator, of course, so the US crime rate would have to have been higher than the average Western European crime rate 10, 20, 30 years ago, rather than today necessarily.
Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail
#8625% of the world population in jail is American. 737 out of 100.000 Americans are in jail, that's almost one out of a hundred. As a comparison Denmark has 59 out of 100.000 people in jail. And the number of Americans in jail has been rising steadily for the last 20 years. This is a pretty serious problem.
Or a pretty serious opportunity, if you get to build/run prisons for a living. Given how corrupt US politics is, I'm sure the two are connected.
http://www.cio.com/article/595304/Prison_Labor_Outsourcing_s...
http://newworkerfeatures.blogspot.com/2010/02/us-prison-labo...
Paying someone who you have in complete physical bondage under $1 an hour is slave labour as far as I'm concerned, even if it is nominally voluntary. At best its unconscionably exploitative. Add to that the fact that the US govt. is legally bound to prefer prison labour over any other for the production of body armour, weapons etc. for the security agencies.
EDIT: Here's another fun stat: america has more black people in prison than in college: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2223709.stm
Although we in the UK are definitely doing pretty well at emulating uncle sam: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/uk_prisons_...
Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or a pretty serious opportunity, if you get to build/run prisons for a living. Given how corrupt US politics is, I'm sure the two are connected.
And a massive cash cow if you're selling the products of the cheap labour that goes on in US prisons. http://www.cio.com/article/595304/Prison_Labor_Outsourcing_s... http://newworkerfeatures.blogspot.com/2010/02/us-prison-labo... Paying someone who you have in complete physical bondage under $1 an hour is slave labour as far as I'm concerned, even if it is nominally voluntary. At best its unconscionably exploitative.…
– edit: To add a bit more substance, here is an article about the recent Georgia prison strike and the Thirteenth Amendment: http://prisonlaw.wordpress.com/2010/12/16/prison-labor-and-t...
Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
Criminals are created by (a) laws, (b) their transgression, and (c) their enforcement. You seem to think that the whole issue is in (b) - that there's something about the US that causes more people to act unlawfully, to transgress. Have you considered other possibilities, such as unjust laws, or unequal application of laws? Besides that, there's social issues, whereby subgroups are disadvantaged and have fewer opport…
Well, let's consider (a) and (c). We're comparing statistics to other Western countries, and other Western countries have largely the same criminal laws the US does. Some of them legalize prostitution more than the US does, but everything else (violent crimes, property crimes, drug crimes) that's illegal in the US is illegal in the countries we're comparing the US with. So that rules out (a) for the purpose of this d…
Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail
#89Anyone knows what was the bail out amount?
$155,000, according to the linked story. Fraser paid $50,000, which he'll get back when the kid makes his court dates. The alternative was paying 10% and not getting it back, which I didn't know was standard policy. (Most of what I know about bail bonds comes from Jackie Brown.)
As of now, bail bondsmen generally charge a fee of 10% of the bond posted, and then use a standing line-of-credit they have with a local bank to pay the bond to the court. The fee covers their costs and the costs of hunting down people who skip bail, and the line-of-credit is what actually pays the bond. To out-compete them, some courts are setting a normal bail bond, but giving people the option of satisfying the bond by paying 10% in cash (which is refunded if they show up in court) as opposed to 100% on credit from somewhere.
Let's say someone is placed on bail with a bond of $100K. Option 1 is to find $10K in cash, use it to pay a bondsman (which costs $10K), and then have the bondsman put up the $100K to get them out of jail. Option 2 is to find $10K in cash, pay it to the court directly, and then get that $10K back when the person shows up in court. Either way, the person is out $10K - but if they pay it to the court directly, they'll get it back.
Re: Google Engineer bails out student in jail
#9025% of the world population in jail is American. 737 out of 100.000 Americans are in jail, that's almost one out of a hundred. As a comparison Denmark has 59 out of 100.000 people in jail. And the number of Americans in jail has been rising steadily for the last 20 years. This is a pretty serious problem.
Or a pretty serious opportunity, if you get to build/run prisons for a living. Given how corrupt US politics is, I'm sure the two are connected.