Amazon Seeks Permission to Launch 3k Internet Satellites • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Seeks Permission to Launch 3k Internet Satellites

#231

Post by dharmab » Sat, Jul 06, 2019, 2:02 PM UTC

gpm wrote: post #123

dharmab wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of Starlink's planned markets is global high frequency trading. The latency of radio and laser transmission in atmosphere and space is much lower than undersea fiber optic cables. (Light moves significantly slower through glass than through air.) Even with the longer distance and retransmission they stand a good chance of being lower latency across oceans than undersea cables.

I originally though this would be a good market, and have voiced that opinion on HN, but afaik SpaceX has never said anything about it. Someone has since pointed out to me that HFT is currently done by bouncing microwaves off the atmosphere. This, unlike fiber, should be faster than SpaceX's constellation making that business unlikely to work out. (Possibly unless high bandwidth almost as low latency is useful).

Bouncing waves off the ionosphere has different ranges depending on the time of day. Do you have more info on how that's currently used? I'm curious to learn more.

Re: Amazon Seeks Permission to Launch 3k Internet Satellites

#232

Post by shaklee3 » Sat, Jul 06, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

visarga wrote: post #204

shaklee3 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were plenty of studies done by astronomers that showed the effect of the satellites can be detrimental to astrology. No, we shouldn't just build them; that's a red herring. There are plenty of other competitors that have comparable bandwidth and don't light up the sky. Of course, the musk effect makes people ignore those.

Yep, I wouldn't like my daily horoscope be wrong because of these satellites.

Astronomers. Thanks :)

Re: Amazon Seeks Permission to Launch 3k Internet Satellites

#233

Post by shaklee3 » Sat, Jul 06, 2019, 2:16 PM UTC

portyllo wrote: post #225

ehsankia wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you attach said MIT study?

http://systemarchitect.mit.edu/docs/delportillo19a.pdf I am one of the authors. This was donde in Sept 2018 so its a little bit outdated by now.

Awesome work. Are you going to update it for the 10,000 satellites + Amazon? I'm guessing the answer is no.

Also, are you looking for a job after graduation? If so, please email me :)

Re: Amazon Seeks Permission to Launch 3k Internet Satellites

#234

Post by shaklee3 » Sat, Jul 06, 2019, 2:17 PM UTC

ericd wrote: post #197

shaklee3 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See the cost of phased array, which Leo needs to work. They're significantly more expensive than standard parabolic dishes, and there's no evidence SpaceX has changed that.

Based on Elon's standard playbook, I'm guessing he's going to try to bring down unit economics with much larger scale in phased array manufacturing than we've seen in the past. If he didn't think he could do this, I don't think they'd be launching Starlink. That said, I know almost nothing about phased arrays, so I don't know if it's expensive due to some fundamental reason, or if it's partly because it's been a nich…

Right, Elon needs that to come down to work. The satellite part is very cool and all, but the ground station cost is where the uncertainty is.

Re: Amazon Seeks Permission to Launch 3k Internet Satellites

#235

Post by jimmaswell » Sat, Jul 06, 2019, 2:18 PM UTC

blurbleblurble wrote: post #207

jimmaswell wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Astronomy is fine and all but I think this is more important.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

Worldwide satellite internet access provides more value to humanity than identifying stars. Maybe some telescopes should be put on the moon/mars anyway.

Re: Amazon Seeks Permission to Launch 3k Internet Satellites

#236

Post by slashdev » Sat, Jul 06, 2019, 2:27 PM UTC

fastball wrote: post #230

eloff wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still totally missing the point. You have to offer something extra to the HFT traders to sell them a $10000/month plan instead of a $49.99 plan. Discriminate on latency somehow for their traffic. Prioritize packets, prefer shortest links over most expedient links, minimize hops. Otherwise if they will just buy your standard plan and you don't monetize them effectively.

Where did you get the idea that satellite constellation internet will cost $10000/m? Or that HFT firms aren't already paying much more than $49/m?

... They're just numbers picked out of the air for one last illustrative attempt to explain why you need something special to entice HFTs to pony up way more than a standard internet plan so you can monetize them effectively.

Re: Amazon Seeks Permission to Launch 3k Internet Satellites

#237

Post by LeifCarrotson » Sat, Jul 06, 2019, 2:49 PM UTC

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #183

the8472 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those dense internet satellite constellations will be in low earth orbit, which have relatively fast decay times. So even in the worst case it would only set us back by a few decades while either cleanup solutions are developed or we wait for them to decay naturally. You can still launch through the debris field into higher orbits because the collision probability will be quite low at any given moment, it just adds u…

>only set us back by a few decades Uhhh, that’s quite some time.

It is interesting to think about. Assume for a minute that Starlink and Amazon's project and a handful of others put tens of thousands of satellites into 500-600 km LEO. Two crash, bits of those crash into others, and runaway Kessler syndrome ensues, resulting in space at those altitudes effectively closed off for 25 years. Assume the ISS at 400 km is no longer safe for human habitation, and it's too risky to try to punch larger payloads through to higher orbits. Human space exploration is effectively dead for 25 years. What happens?

On the scale of human history, that's a moment in time. Today, as we learn about the history of colonial Europe, there's lots of exploration, then the 30 Years War in 1618 slowed that down a lot for a while, then things resumed. In 2500 AD, astronauts will learn of the early history of 1900s first flights, and the 2020-2045 setback, and then 400 years of further development.

But in the short term, that's a full career for everyone who just entered the field. Space companies would publish 100 quarterly earnings statements with zero progress, just waiting for the window to open again. I just don't know that modern society has the ability to think long-term for an event like that.

Re: Amazon Seeks Permission to Launch 3k Internet Satellites

#238

Post by jimmaswell » Sat, Jul 06, 2019, 3:19 PM UTC

chillydawg wrote: post #209

jimmaswell wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Astronomy is fine and all but I think this is more important.

Without astronomy, this whole enterprise couldn't have happened.

All the necessary physics could have been developed just fine even if there had always been a dense fog of debris surrounding the earth past the moon.

Re: Amazon Seeks Permission to Launch 3k Internet Satellites

#239

Post by gpm » Sat, Jul 06, 2019, 3:26 PM UTC

dharmab wrote: post #231

gpm wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I originally though this would be a good market, and have voiced that opinion on HN, but afaik SpaceX has never said anything about it. Someone has since pointed out to me that HFT is currently done by bouncing microwaves off the atmosphere. This, unlike fiber, should be faster than SpaceX's constellation making that business unlikely to work out. (Possibly unless high bandwidth almost as low latency is useful).

Bouncing waves off the ionosphere has different ranges depending on the time of day. Do you have more info on how that's currently used? I'm curious to learn more.

Not really, sorry

Re: Amazon Seeks Permission to Launch 3k Internet Satellites

#240

Post by blurbleblurble » Sat, Jul 06, 2019, 3:31 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #235

blurbleblurble wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

Worldwide satellite internet access provides more value to humanity than identifying stars. Maybe some telescopes should be put on the moon/mars anyway.

I'd tend to disagree with ya on that!