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Wringing

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Re: Wringing

#51
post #43
post #11

Great stuff. We need more of these types of science tidbits on HN. And good links by the commenters too. I love Feynman's classic style of "explaining to a 5 year old" on Cold Welding. The reason for this unexpected behavior is that when the atoms in contact are all of the same kind, there is no way for the atoms to “know” that they are in different pieces of copper. When there are other atoms, in the oxides and grea…

Note that this is a big oversimplification- it doesn't apply to gage blocks. Cold welding and similar phenomenon can only truly happen with metallic bonds and very large grain sizes. Non-metallic bonds are structured and require precise orientations and conditions to reform. Metals are still structured -metals have crystal grains- and the microscale structure needs to line up in order to reform. In cold welding, you…

There's something at play that causes precision ground surfaces to stick together. Oil certainly plays a part, but there's a point that when two surfaces are flat enough, they'll stick hard in place, and there's a "crack" moment when twisting them apart.

Around a decade ago, I worked in a machine shop. Mill table surfaces are ground flat. Not precision surface flat, but good enough to be a reference for cutting tools. Mill vise clamping surfaces are ground flat. It's normal for an object that's at least cut (not even ground) flat on one side to get hydraulically suctioned via cutting oil to either of these. It's usually easy to slide the part off to the edge of the surface.

Very flat surfaces do this as well, but with a little more encouragement to work out oil from between parts, they'll start to stick in place. The more finely ground and flat each side is, the more pronounced the sticking moment will be. Extremely finely surfaced blocks being wrung together will frustrate you by sticking before you have them lined up the way you want them.

This made me suspicious of the role that surface tension and vacuum played. Hydraulically stuck things are easily separated by a quick blast of compressed air. Wrung blocks aren't as easily separated by a blast of air. I tried to clean blocks as devoid of liquid as possible and wrung them together. They still stick, but it's not as secure, and they come straight apart the moment they're twisted apart.

After this, it seemed that wringing blocks together worked best with a trace of oil. Brief cleaning with a dry rag does leave a trace, and if the surfaces are flat enough, perhaps that trace is enough to fill some microscopic voids between flat-ground surfaces. Twisting blocks together encourages entrapped air to escape, and can shuffle trace oil into voids. The solution I came up with is that the metal of the two blocks does stick together somehow once it's in contact, and the surface tension provided by a trace of oil contributes additional sticking force where the surfaces don't meet.

We didn't have ceramic blocks, though. It might be an interesting additional experiment to try this with mixed materials. Does wringing together ceramic and steel precision surfaces work the same way? Should it? What would that mean?

Re: Wringing

#52
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that this is a big oversimplification- it doesn't apply to gage blocks. Cold welding and similar phenomenon can only truly happen with metallic bonds and very large grain sizes. Non-metallic bonds are structured and require precise orientations and conditions to reform. Metals are still structured -metals have crystal grains- and the microscale structure needs to line up in order to reform. In cold welding, you…

There's something at play that causes precision ground surfaces to stick together. Oil certainly plays a part, but there's a point that when two surfaces are flat enough, they'll stick hard in place, and there's a "crack" moment when twisting them apart. Around a decade ago, I worked in a machine shop. Mill table surfaces are ground flat. Not precision surface flat, but good enough to be a reference for cutting tools…

> Mill vise clamping surfaces are ground flat. It's normal for an object that's at least cut (not even ground) flat on one side to get hydraulically suctioned via cutting oil to either of these. It's usually easy to slide the part off to the edge of the surface.

Like you say, this is a hydraulic/air pressure effect- it's related to why you can float things on a reference plane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj6jmQxZe8s

> Twisting blocks together encourages entrapped air to escape, and can shuffle trace oil into voids. The solution I came up with is that the metal of the two blocks does stick together somehow once it's in contact, and the surface tension provided by a trace of oil contributes additional sticking force where the surfaces don't meet.

Basically right, but the dominant theory is that the twisting/sliding motion creates vacuums. First a sealed pocket forms by bringing asperities close together so that they are attracted by stronger forces. Then as the blocks slide, they stretch out the voids and cause the pressure inside to go below atmospheric. I'm kind of skeptical of it, but the sliding does definitely prevent anything additional from being trapped between, and makes the oil film as thin as possible.

Additionally, there is an oil film on literally everything. It takes really serious equipment, like plasma chambers, to actually remove the thinnest layer of oil from a material. Oil just floats around the air constantly, and bonds like glue to basically everything: https://youtu.be/atVSxvbiPg0?t=39

> We didn't have ceramic blocks, though. It might be an interesting additional experiment to try this with mixed materials. Does wringing together ceramic and steel precision surfaces work the same way? Should it? What would that mean?

Indeed they do: https://youtu.be/_YVWdxr0E_g?t=155

It mostly just indicates that intermolecular forces don't have much to do with it. There's no real reason they'd want to stick together- the bonds in the ceramic are extremely tight and ordered. Ceramic blocks also wring more tightly than steel blocks, but shouldn't experience high intermolecular forces between each other.

Re: Wringing

#53
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure that's not just the air pressure difference? Cymbals often have a shape with many concentric ripples, so you might need multiple holes to equalize the air pressure between each ripple. Wringing only works with extremely flat surfaces, and it works even in vacuum.

Yep, admit I was a little taken aback after the drilled holes explanation. This seems correct, as no practically priced cymbal could be so precisely made.

I don't think they need to be precise; any reduction in the natural vibration can be detrimental to the sound.

They never get "stuck" together, however, imnsho.

Re: Wringing

#54
At our physics school we had some super flat metal blocks. Much flatter than gage blocks. We were warned never to put them together or we'd never get them apart.

These blocks were used for measurement, but I can't remember exactly how.

Re: Wringing

#55
This got me wondering, (and I know it's probably not a physics question). If I scrape two fingers and press them together for a week. How do the skin cells know which other cells to attach to when healing? Or will I have one super finger?

Re: Wringing

#56

This got me wondering, (and I know it's probably not a physics question). If I scrape two fingers and press them together for a week. How do the skin cells know which other cells to attach to when healing? Or will I have one super finger?

Try it and let us know!

Re: Wringing

#57

This got me wondering, (and I know it's probably not a physics question). If I scrape two fingers and press them together for a week. How do the skin cells know which other cells to attach to when healing? Or will I have one super finger?

This is the origin of the concept of a skin graft, surely.

Re: Wringing

#58
post #2

If you (like me) read the entire article without really getting an intuition for these "gauge blocks", here they are in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbsd2OpPOMw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lOOl3VxOtE

I love this guy's units. 1/4 of a bee's dick is my favorite.

Re: Wringing

#59
This takes me back to a summer job I had 35 years ago, calibrating a set of gauge pins. I think it was a couple hundred of them. Visually inspect them for corrosion or scratches, wipe them down with WD-40, measure each end and the middle with digital calipers, and log the measurements and any comment on their appearance. Honestly it probably to0k 2.5 days but it felt like forever.

Re: Wringing

#60
post #11

Great stuff. We need more of these types of science tidbits on HN. And good links by the commenters too. I love Feynman's classic style of "explaining to a 5 year old" on Cold Welding. The reason for this unexpected behavior is that when the atoms in contact are all of the same kind, there is no way for the atoms to “know” that they are in different pieces of copper. When there are other atoms, in the oxides and grea…

Here's one I posted today showing how tunnel boring machines work. More civil engineering than science, but I found it quite fascinating: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20364474

We've put that in the second-chance pool (described at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11662380) so it will get a random placement on the front page.
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