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When zebra mussels colonized Lake Erie, it began to recover

ecosophia.net

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Re: When zebra mussels colonized Lake Erie, it began to recover

#31
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that Greer is claiming that we should "welcome all invasive species" as much simply pointing out that Nature doesn't stand still. What we call an "invasive species" is, from a broader perspective, simply Nature adapting to changing circumstances, which includes opening up new habitat to previously unknown species. This only looks odd or threatening if we assume that Nature should be static and fixed, an…

Also, that evolution works by "the survival of the fittest". If an invasive species (that didn't evolve in the environment it's invading) is better-suited to the environment than the native species (who did evolve there, and by rights should be better suited to it), then that's a win for evolution. The fitter species survive, and will then evolve into the niches available. The introduction of mammals to New Zealand i…

I think you raise a good point. I’d be curious to hear the reasoning on the downvotes.

Re: When zebra mussels colonized Lake Erie, it began to recover

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, that evolution works by "the survival of the fittest". If an invasive species (that didn't evolve in the environment it's invading) is better-suited to the environment than the native species (who did evolve there, and by rights should be better suited to it), then that's a win for evolution. The fitter species survive, and will then evolve into the niches available. The introduction of mammals to New Zealand i…

> But for the planetary biosphere, it's a win because the mammals are better suited to living there It's not a win in either case. It's just what happened. Evolution and nature and the biosphere don't have goals.

You raise a good point too. if there are no wins or losses in nature maybe it comes down to promoting species we enjoy most?

Re: When zebra mussels colonized Lake Erie, it began to recover

#33
post #29

I think this piece is misguided. Some background: as a kid, my family boated on the SF Bay. I can remember when cormorants were rare on the bay. There were no porpoises or dolphins in the bay. It was rare for a whale to enter the bay. There were zero brown pelicans. All of those observations are entirely opposite of today's bay. Acts of government have seriously improved water ecosystems. Now that memory is a data po…

You're right, the article makes too strong of a correlation between the affects that Zebra & Quagga mussels have had and Lake Erie's recovery. But I'm curious, does that totally discredit the article?

No doubt, if left alone without any government policy, Lake Erie may not have recovered from purely natural means, such as the introduction of an invasive species. I believe, like you, that government policy has helped in the restoration, at least has helped speed it up.

But I don't think that's the author's real point. The point he is ultimately making is stated in the article:

> "Our culture — meaning here the collective culture of modern Western industrial society — is obsessed by the false belief that nature can’t adapt to our actions."

and:

> "Our habitual way of dealing with Mother Nature assumes that we talk and she listens, full stop, end of sentence. [...] What we need to recognize, rather, is that we’re engaged in a conversation with the old broad. We said “pollution,” she quipped “zebra mussels;” we said “internal combustion engines,” and she smiled and said “coastal flooding.” We can listen to her responses and learn from them - or not, and find out the hard way what else she has to say."

I think the author is suggesting that nature will, in the end, restore balance and that we, as species, could possibly help by simply getting out of the way or maybe working with natural processes. Understanding nature's process rather than fighting it is likely the best way out of the messes that we've created for ourselves.

Re: When zebra mussels colonized Lake Erie, it began to recover

#35

I'm from Erie and lived there during all of this, and can confirm. Especially this: > And the human reaction? That’s where things get interesting. The human reaction was all-out panic Zebra mussels grabbed headlines in the local paper for years. Everyone went nuts. We all thought it was doomsday and believed you'd never be able to float a boat in the bay ever again.

I remember seeing all of the warning signs about zebra mussels when I was growing up there.

Re: When zebra mussels colonized Lake Erie, it began to recover

#36

Every time I read stories about how polluted our (US/Canada) streams and lakes are it makes me shutter to think of how monumentally bad China must be with little to no environmental protection! This recent video of just one small, insignificant shop in China for example. It needs to somehow dispose of thousands of gallons of toxic chemicals ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83GDV0xsTTs ) and my suspicion is that it g…

> Every time I read stories about how polluted our (US/Canada) streams and lakes are it makes me shutter to think of how monumentally bad China must be with little to no environmental protection!

We were that bad. The EPA (signed by Nixon!) is what turned that around.

Re: When zebra mussels colonized Lake Erie, it began to recover

#37
post #25

Well, that is one unusual source for an HN submission! Quite interesting read - about the author, from that website: > John Michael Greer is a widely read author and blogger whose work focuses on the overlaps between ecology, spirituality, and the future of industrial society. > He served twelve years as Grand Archdruid of the Ancient Order of Druids in America, and currently heads the Druidical Order of the Golden D…

the FTT page is hilarious. It's also something that speaks to every person who has run a website for an organization, when I was webmaster for a convention, I had a text file with canned responses, 8 of them or so, that answered 80% of the questions received, all of which were answerable by reading the website.

Re: When zebra mussels colonized Lake Erie, it began to recover

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, that evolution works by "the survival of the fittest". If an invasive species (that didn't evolve in the environment it's invading) is better-suited to the environment than the native species (who did evolve there, and by rights should be better suited to it), then that's a win for evolution. The fitter species survive, and will then evolve into the niches available. The introduction of mammals to New Zealand i…

I think you raise a good point. I’d be curious to hear the reasoning on the downvotes.

We humans benefit from a stable environment.

In stable-ish conditions, ecosystems evolve towards stable configurations where the sun's energy can be optimally tapped.

Those disruptions bring unstability (boom-bust cycles of high amplitude) and thus danger for us.

Re: When zebra mussels colonized Lake Erie, it began to recover

#39
post #5

While I understand the point about zebra mussels cleaning up lake Erie, I can't agree with the idea that we should welcome all invasive species. After all, the presence of e.g. feral cats on various islands or foxes in Australia is just another one of the messes humans made, and we should feel as responsible for the damage they do as we feel responsible for pollution. Zebra mussels may be one of the few examples wher…

You can't really even talk about what's "good" for an ecosystem in this large of a context though. Any criterion you would care to come up with or name, is gonna end up being a human idea. You can't see the world except through eyes.

Example: Is clear water inherently "good" or is it just something humans like? These mussels prefer the dirty water. Maybe in the Zebra Mussel Bible, the cleaning of the lake water is called "the coming apocalypse due to our greedy exploitation of nature" and the polluted years are remembered fondly as "the good times."

Is an island populated by a larger number of species more finely-adapted to smaller niches, "better" than an island overrun with mostly generalists (cats and a couple of prey species)? In other words is biodiversity "good" or is it just something humans like? Certainly greater biodiversity is associated with longer periods of unchanging climate/geology/etc. that, to us, resemble our (maybe fitting, maybe not) concept of an "equilibrium." Not coincidentally these periods include the one we've been in for a few thousand years now, during which all writing, agriculture, cities and civilization developed. So we tend to think of them as "natural" and as a "norm," that we maybe will or maybe won't disturb. But those periods are only part of the story. There are also those dynamic, changing, cataclysmic periods. And when those are going on, biodiversity tends to be less initially, as shown by the mass extinctions visible in the fossil record.

Just to completely take it over the top, is life better than death? Cuz the natural order seems to think they both should happen in almost exactly equal measure. Plus, "An empty glass is full of opportunity." A dead tree is a great boon to the next generation of little trees that grow on the rotting trunk, not to mention all the fungi etc. that survive by doing the rotting.

I dunno, it's hard to formulate any "puny huuu-mon" judgments about anything that don't just fall apart.

Re: When zebra mussels colonized Lake Erie, it began to recover

#40
post #25

Well, that is one unusual source for an HN submission! Quite interesting read - about the author, from that website: > John Michael Greer is a widely read author and blogger whose work focuses on the overlaps between ecology, spirituality, and the future of industrial society. > He served twelve years as Grand Archdruid of the Ancient Order of Druids in America, and currently heads the Druidical Order of the Golden D…

My philosophy professor in a college was also a Professor of Magic History in a School of Witchcraft and Wizardry[1]. Really. After that I do not pay much attention to such a things, I prefer to judge by what people say, not by how do they look.

[1] http://ostentum.ru/en/

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