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Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

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Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#71
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gatekeeping is the only way communities can keep themselves healthy. There is no such thing as a universal 'community'. From day one, life has been about letting in certain elements, and keeping out others. Without this selection, development and differentiation are impossible. Similarly we don't (and shouldn't) let every person into our homes, or our countries, or our servers. Why is it seen as an obvious truth that…

>Why is it seen as an obvious truth that we should allow every single person onto the Internet, without ever being able to remove them? For the same reason it's seen as an obvious truth that everyone should be allowed to use a telephone, or send a letter in the mail. The internet is a communications platform, by definition it belongs to anyone who wants to use it. The internet being used by everyone no more makes the…

Firstly, letter writing and the telephone are P2P technologies that assume pre-existing association of the (limited) participants in a given communication. While acknowledging that the internet can facilitate such use, a better analogue for the internet might be a notice board in a town square (a commons), via which means people elect to communicate singly or in groups. Citizens (an implicit membership qualification) are free to post or read flyers on various topics as they please within social or legal bounds. However they are (usually) not free to smear their shit all over the notice board, or torch notices, or set upon others that want to use the notice board.

With respect to ownership, I assume you’re referring to a “right of use” rather than ownership of the underlying physical assets and services. Rights however, derive from somewhere and most rights carry an implicit purpose defining or otherwise informing the scope of the right. For example, the second amendment (right to bear arms) is not a free pass to commit murder or to otherwise use those arms to infringe on the legitimate rights of others. (Note, I’m not mentioning this in order to start a flame war. I’m making no statement regarding gun rights or related topic). Therefore I’d question where or how you believe this “ownership/use” right has arisen.

With respect to the “anarchist hacker ethos” leading to the internet (and as someone old enough to have mostly been there), I’d suggest that no such thing occurred. You are assuming a single philosophy on the part of a great many people and organisations (such as the military) who contributed to the key infrastructure of the internet. What exactly is this hacker ethos? My definition likely differs significantly from ESR’s which may or may not differ from yours. Nevertheless you state a purpose, “liberating humanity from the constraints of gatekeepers”. I’d humbly suggest that the vast majority of users of these commons are not even aware that this is the intent, let alone agree with it, other than that their own ability to use this commons as they wish, even to the detriment of others, be uninfringed.

Historically, gatekeepers have been few. On the internet however, much like in lawless towns past, the good burghers are forming posses of their own to protect the use of their little patch of the internet, via mechanisms such as moderating, rating, voting and karma based systems. Irrespective of the efficacy of such approaches, online communities are increasingly adopting them to filter out or limit the actions of bad citizens. Effectively, communities themselves are becoming the gatekeepers. And from my perspective, good on them. Because however imperfect these attempts might be, I’d much rather HN with its voting system than without (for example).

I don’t support keeping the “normies” out, but I do support the right of each community to decide for itself whether and how they want to keep the arseholes out.

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#72

The internet was much nicer before most people were using it. We usually focus on the technology problems here at HN: filter bubbles, skinner box addictive UIs and content feeds, algorithmic and centralized control. Has anyone simply wondered if the problem with the internet is fundamentally that everyone's on it? It used to be an escape from the problems of the real world. Now it's just a new way for the problems of…

Well a while ago there was a link posted here of before and after of banning ads in a downtown area. The entire place looked several times nicer and cared for afterwards.

It's probably much the same online. Those ads blaring someone else's name, even in what is "kinda" your own personal lawn/profile/whatever, does a lot to remove a sense of ownership. Likewise in hope of getting more engagement, what would be a smaller conversation is likely to end up massively broadcasted for those ad views.

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#73

Avoid the mainstream media, advertising-centric sites, social media, et al, and the Internet is mostly fine. Stick to the niche sites and services that have always been there and it’s a much more pleasant place.

Any particular niche sites that you have in mind and could recommend to others?

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#74

I'm going to take a cynical stand and claim that the internet as the greybeards envisioned decades ago is just not going to happen. Or perhaps happened for a short window in the early 2000s. I don't see how we can just turn things around. Something new will pop up in a few years, limited within hacker circles, perhaps in a medium beyond computers/phones. It'll have all the nice qualities that we seek such as privacy,…

The 'Internet' is working as intended. The issue is how HTTP is used and its availability in most consumer devices. Regulation is required, but won't occur with a US congress that is pro-business and anti-consumer.

California could regulate companies within its borders, but it would stand to lose that sweet tax revenue on shares and RSU's when they move to a different state.

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#75

The internet was much nicer before most people were using it. We usually focus on the technology problems here at HN: filter bubbles, skinner box addictive UIs and content feeds, algorithmic and centralized control. Has anyone simply wondered if the problem with the internet is fundamentally that everyone's on it? It used to be an escape from the problems of the real world. Now it's just a new way for the problems of…

[deleted]

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#76
post #4

I agree with Larry about abuse by Facebook and Twitter. I also strongly encourage him to look at state of wikipedia moderations. Specially in a country like India. Lot of pages related to political content is moderated by people who are deeply partisan and have no respect for facts.

Exactly. Larry isn't wrong, it's just Wikipedia isn't completely clean either.

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#77

Avoid the mainstream media, advertising-centric sites, social media, et al, and the Internet is mostly fine. Stick to the niche sites and services that have always been there and it’s a much more pleasant place.

Any particular niche sites that you have in mind and could recommend to others?

Isn't this antithesis to the issue at hand?

These niche places are great exactly because they're hard to find, and the community there grows organically.

I'm on HN now because slashdot was flailing years ago, and a friend I knew IRL mentioned it ....

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#78

Is a decentralized social network really the solution? I'd rather enjoy having a social platform managed for the greater good, by a not-for-profit organization. The Mozilla or Wikimedia of social networks.

> Is a decentralized social network really the solution?

I think the question is different: is a decentralized social network possible (with the same features of a centralized one)?

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#79

The internet was much nicer before most people were using it. We usually focus on the technology problems here at HN: filter bubbles, skinner box addictive UIs and content feeds, algorithmic and centralized control. Has anyone simply wondered if the problem with the internet is fundamentally that everyone's on it? It used to be an escape from the problems of the real world. Now it's just a new way for the problems of…

The internet is the way it is right now for the same reason that you don't just let anyone and everyone into a club. When you destroy the barrier to entry, you get a bunch of totally uncool people who kill the mood, talk about really lame shit, start fights, get blackout/piss-pants drunk, and vandalize property. Indeed, the internet once was a lot more like a club; even in the late 90's and early 2000s when I began u…

At the same time, in the past it was easy to start an 'internet club' where you could start fights, get piss-pants drunk, and be a vandal without the cops showing up and saying "Such behavior is not permitted". You run into a never ending battle of extremes.

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you. But this teeters dangerously close to gatekeeping, elitism, or something along those lines. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but I think how others feel after reading our comments does matter. Better put, because everyone is on the internet now, the real world's problems are now the internet's problems. It used to serve as an escape, true. It has made the world a smaller place, where problems from a…

Gatekeeping is the only way communities can keep themselves healthy. There is no such thing as a universal 'community'. From day one, life has been about letting in certain elements, and keeping out others. Without this selection, development and differentiation are impossible. Similarly we don't (and shouldn't) let every person into our homes, or our countries, or our servers. Why is it seen as an obvious truth that…

I don't like where this thought experiment goes. Replace internet with earth.

Why is it seen as an obvious truth that we should allow every single person onto the Earth, without ever being able to remove them?

What you speak about is tribalism and is a genetic trait that used to help us survive. But we can rise above our animal instincts and be better.

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