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Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

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Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#11

Post by tomxor »

throwaway8879 wrote: post #7

I'm going to take a cynical stand and claim that the internet as the greybeards envisioned decades ago is just not going to happen. Or perhaps happened for a short window in the early 2000s. I don't see how we can just turn things around. Something new will pop up in a few years, limited within hacker circles, perhaps in a medium beyond computers/phones. It'll have all the nice qualities that we seek such as privacy,…

> Any new kind of "internet" that depends on traditional infrastructure that is under the control of states/corporations will end up being exactly like the one we have now.

There is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise, decentralised or federated versions of all kinds of things on the web exist, and work, today... Just no one uses them of course.

The problem is none of these ideas seem to be able to obtain dominance, because that's not in their nature, that is in the nature of capitalism at the deep end, and it already has a grasp on the things that most decentralised tech is trying to replace.

The exceptions are decentralised tech that has no corporate competition, e.g bittorrent. I think that's a very useful observation, it's a classic "make a better horse" scenario, it's difficult to see the future when you are focused on present technology - I think the way to make the centralised web obsolete is not to merely decentralise the existing manifestation of it, but to make something entirely, fundamentally different, because corporations don't innovate in that dimension, so they can't compete, and can't dominate early enough to monopolize it.

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#12

Post by everdrive »

The internet was much nicer before most people were using it. We usually focus on the technology problems here at HN: filter bubbles, skinner box addictive UIs and content feeds, algorithmic and centralized control. Has anyone simply wondered if the problem with the internet is fundamentally that everyone's on it? It used to be an escape from the problems of the real world. Now it's just a new way for the problems of the real world to reach you.

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#13

Post by iamsb »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #8
iamsb wrote: post #4

I agree with Larry about abuse by Facebook and Twitter. I also strongly encourage him to look at state of wikipedia moderations. Specially in a country like India. Lot of pages related to political content is moderated by people who are deeply partisan and have no respect for facts.

India seems to have a huge problem with propaganda being spread on WhatsApp such as fake videos that mobilize mobs prior election campaigns etc: "India: Fake News and Agitprop": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0LgwL6rMPk

India has many problems with media. Fake news media, crypto fake media, deep fake media. Fake media is easy to identify. Crypto media and deep fake is more difficult.

Recently google sponsored data journalism award was given to one of the most partisan website. And new think tanks which are sponsored by unknown forces come up all the time. One of the recent ones which I am investigating is called equality labs which recently did a dubious study claiming that there is absolutely no abuse of a majority group on Internet by a minority group. A simple search can disapprove that in seconds.

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#14

Post by werber »

I find these rants about social media patronizing, people are aware, they just don't care. It's not whistle blowing, it's self congratulatory yipping at this point. If you want to make a better solution that happens to be decentralized and works with just as little effort, then do it if you actually care rant over

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#15

Post by jessriedel »

iamsb wrote: post #10
jessriedel wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think he would disagree with you about the problems with Wikipedia moderation? It's not under his control, and it shouldn't be.

yes but he can create better systems where moderation is not controlled by groups of higher privilege. Essentially, from my limited understanding, it is not possible to take away moderation privileges from individuals. Please feel free to correct me on this.

I think even if you had complete control to re-write the Wikipedia system from scratch, creating effective moderation systems is a super challenging. Trying to change the current system given the existing entrenched interest is damn near impossible. If you have a specific system change you thought could and should be made by Sanger, let's hear it (though I won't be able to assess).

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#16

Post by rolha-capoeira »

everdrive wrote: post #12

The internet was much nicer before most people were using it. We usually focus on the technology problems here at HN: filter bubbles, skinner box addictive UIs and content feeds, algorithmic and centralized control. Has anyone simply wondered if the problem with the internet is fundamentally that everyone's on it? It used to be an escape from the problems of the real world. Now it's just a new way for the problems of…

I hear you. But this teeters dangerously close to gatekeeping, elitism, or something along those lines. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but I think how others feel after reading our comments does matter.

Better put, because everyone is on the internet now, the real world's problems are now the internet's problems. It used to serve as an escape, true. It has made the world a smaller place, where problems from a distant state or country can reach me and I can't help but be aware of them. I may even be affected by them.

Is that good or bad, for us as individuals or as global citizens? That's heavy stuff.

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#17

Post by gabcoh »

iamsb wrote: post #13
DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India seems to have a huge problem with propaganda being spread on WhatsApp such as fake videos that mobilize mobs prior election campaigns etc: "India: Fake News and Agitprop": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0LgwL6rMPk

India has many problems with media. Fake news media, crypto fake media, deep fake media. Fake media is easy to identify. Crypto media and deep fake is more difficult. Recently google sponsored data journalism award was given to one of the most partisan website. And new think tanks which are sponsored by unknown forces come up all the time. One of the recent ones which I am investigating is called equality labs which…

What is crypto fake media?

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#18

Post by throwaway8879 »

tomxor wrote: post #11
throwaway8879 wrote: post #7

I'm going to take a cynical stand and claim that the internet as the greybeards envisioned decades ago is just not going to happen. Or perhaps happened for a short window in the early 2000s. I don't see how we can just turn things around. Something new will pop up in a few years, limited within hacker circles, perhaps in a medium beyond computers/phones. It'll have all the nice qualities that we seek such as privacy,…

> Any new kind of "internet" that depends on traditional infrastructure that is under the control of states/corporations will end up being exactly like the one we have now. There is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise, decentralised or federated versions of all kinds of things on the web exist, and work, today... Just no one uses them of course. The problem is none of these ideas seem to be able to obtain dominan…

I agree with you, especially on the bit about making something entirely and fundamentally different. I do see an alternative that the tech-savvy will flock to, perhaps they already have by deleting social media etc. How do you get the rest of the internet population to care about using an alternative that respects their privacy though?

And it's not just privacy on the internet, but in meatspace too. Thankfully I'm still from a part of the world that hasn't gone completely digital, but there are annoying advances like absolutely needing a phone to have a bank account. Or having my face scanned for certain things.

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#19

Post by gerikson »

tenpies wrote: post #9
iamsb wrote: post #4

I agree with Larry about abuse by Facebook and Twitter. I also strongly encourage him to look at state of wikipedia moderations. Specially in a country like India. Lot of pages related to political content is moderated by people who are deeply partisan and have no respect for facts.

> state of wikipedia moderations I'm glad others are keeping an eye on this issue. It is incredibly ironic to me that anyone in a leadership role at Wikipedia would criticize Zuckerberg or Dorsey. It's not even just political content, it's getting to the point where history is being actively re-written and re-interpreted to match a radical narrative. In some sort of temporal example of humour, I've gone back to recom…

> It is incredibly ironic to me that anyone in a leadership role at Wikipedia would criticize Zuckerberg or Dorsey.

According to (ironically) Wikipedia[1], Sanger left the project in 2006^W the early 2000s:

> Frustrated by sustained content battles and feeling he had a lack of support from Wales, Sanger eventually left the project.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Sanger

Re: Wikipedia co-founder slams the ‘appalling’ internet

#20

Post by hirundo »

iamsb wrote: post #4

I agree with Larry about abuse by Facebook and Twitter. I also strongly encourage him to look at state of wikipedia moderations. Specially in a country like India. Lot of pages related to political content is moderated by people who are deeply partisan and have no respect for facts.

> I also strongly encourage him to look at state of wikipedia moderations.

I think that the solution is similar to what he's proposing for the social networks: decentralization. One example would be to take hint from github, and allow articles to be forked when they reach some threshold of editing warfare. Embrace and aggregate partisan takes rather pursuing the noble but chimeric goal of neutrality.

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