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Is this Paypal experience customary?

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Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#131
post #9

No, most people would not be this agitated about a mistaken transaction being silently refunded. At best they'd probably assume the notification went to spam or something and went on with their day My bank doesn't notify me about any transactions, I have to check my bank book manually. Once a mistaken transaction showed up and disappeared a few hours later, with no trace left behind at all. I just assumed it was a mi…

> I just assumed it was a mistake and didn't bother getting angry.

No need to get angry, but you might need to get careful. It's a bit like seeing a single cockroach in a restaurant; you can't just kill and remove it then declare that everything's fine.

Contacting them and confirming that it was a mistake is basic CYA, it establishes with them that it's not your transaction and hopefully gets something on file.

(I've just got off the phone with EE after a mysterious charge appeared on my account. They couldn't tell me where it had come from or even when it was applied, so after putting me on hold for a while they agreed to just take it off again. But I only spotted it because I'm checking my bills carefully after a previous dispute ...)

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#132

Yeah, had this happen to me. Currently my account is limited, they want me to send proof that I have shipped things that do not exist. I am not a merchant or anything like this, I just sent money to my gf and she sends money to me. It's fucking stupid. These companies are absolute shit.

My wife and several of our friends are using venmo for transferring money and seem to like the app.

Guess who owns Venmo? You have 1 attempt.

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#133
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not agitated by being called a liar, nor being implicitly accused of fraud? It sounds like PayPal, or someone, made a mistake that PayPal then processed a fix on. When the guy called to say someone took money from his account with no notification, "what happened?", they said _he_ had actioned the refunding of the money. Which he hadn't. They lied, purposefully and deliberately. But there's a good chance that t…

Lied perhaps ... or somebody made a mistake. Support rep might just not have understood the information they were seeing on their screen. Why immediately say THEY LIED rather than, they were mistaken. I find it more fruitful in life not to assume bad faith from the outset.

Fair point, PayPal were possibly mistaken because they've designed their system badly. They have it in their power to ensure they're not mistaken. Choosing to tell a falsehood as truth ... now, there's a name for that ...

I'm assuming good faith on behalf of the OP primarily because I've had a similar experience of missing transactions on PayPal.

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#134
post #94
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the expansion of "Faster Payments" and "open banking" (banks must support APIs!), I wouldn't be surprised to see the EU try to mandate a bank-to-bank ""federated"" payment system. Norway already has Vipps everywhere, although that's more like Venmo than Paypal.

We have Interac[1] in Canada and it works quite well. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interac

Interac "works" but has many pitfalls. Some examples:

- Inability to issue refunds

- Lack of 2 factor authentication

- Non-unique payment addresses (receiving emails are not bound to one account or even one person)

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#135
post #126
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

P.s. never ever link any account with shared funds to PayPal. Business or otherwise, open a completely separate account for PayPal if you must use it. Imagine having PayPal place a hold on the funds in your account to make sure refunds/fraud can be handled. Then when a customer does request a refund you’re literally unable to process the refund because it won’t take it from the funds you just received that are held.…

> PayPal needs to end IMO You say that but it's literally the only way to counter scamming sellers on the internet. PayPal needs to stay, at least until there are viable competitors.

How is it "literally the only way to counter scamming sellers"? There are so many competitors out there that offer better services... Stripe, Google Pay, Moneris, Braintree, Square, WePay, Authorize.net, the list goes on...

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#136
post #53

I just got an invoice from Google Account. Basically, scammers send people invoices stating that they exceeded their 5GB and people have to pay $120 not to lose their Google account. I'm sure there are tons of rich idiots who will pay $120, but I wonder why: - There was no merchant contact info. They managed to upload Google's logo and use Google Account as the merchant name. Isn't PayPal doing any basic blacklist ch…

My guess regarding why PayPal does so badly with edge cases: they probably use very low wage "contractors" to run customer service and support.

Google, Facebook, PayPal all rely on their automated systems working perfectly and handling as much as possible. But there's always edge cases where things don't go as planned, and they require human intervention. But big tech wants max profits, so they try not to hire anyone, and those that they do hire are as poorly paid as they can get away with.

So you get very uninterested and unmotivated people handling customer support.

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#137
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does anyone know of or can think of a better explanation for this? Mainframe.

This is a very likely answer. Strange that it is downvoted.

Eh. No worries.

I expect a relatively small minority of the HN crowd have exposure to decades-old mainframe systems.

It seemed a plausible rationale, given the state of the world ~2000 when PayPal was ramping up was very different.

Especially in the financial sector, I can see partners and/or requisite systems to interface with being heavily mainframe-based.

And now, even if PayPal is following best practices, it's possible one of their counterparties is stuck in the 1980s. People forget that "building Fort Knox around a private line from X DC to Y DC" is sometimes cheaper than "rewrite COBOL system of record that no one alive worked on."

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#138
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

P.s. never ever link any account with shared funds to PayPal. Business or otherwise, open a completely separate account for PayPal if you must use it. Imagine having PayPal place a hold on the funds in your account to make sure refunds/fraud can be handled. Then when a customer does request a refund you’re literally unable to process the refund because it won’t take it from the funds you just received that are held.…

Actually that doesn't even work. When they don't have a payment method on file that they can abuse, they'll be happy to send your PayPal account into overdraft and start threatening legal action to bully you into settling the balance. Really the only thing to do, as soon as you see a "pay with paypal" screen is to go away screaming. Here's the anecdote: I had had a company with a bank account and PayPal account, then…

Did you take the vendor (who made the fraudulent charge) to court to get your funds back?

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#139
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On call centers, I will keep pointing people at: http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2012/01/21/the-politics-of-... > Inappropriate automation and human/machine confusion bedevil call centres. If you could solve your problem by filling in a web form, you probably would have done. The fact you’re in the queue is evidence that your request is complicated, that something has gone wrong, or generally that human intervention…

Call centers, warehouses, and distribution centers; all places where people seem to be required yet their creativity and input isn't. For a large part, we treat them like they're just meat robots. I remember the first time I saw the computer-controlled voice-directing picking. You wear the headset. The computer tells you what to do. I see this way of working eating up more and more workers. One economist put it this…

Predicted : http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

Re: Is this Paypal experience customary?

#140
If you do a calculation of the number of Ebay purchases that are handled by PayPal, it's certainly in the millions, and probably hundreds of millions. The rate of outright fraud is unfortunately very high, and the average person is so prone to error that PayPal must employ many people to handle all the cases.

Once you have a very large organisation, consisting of many staff handling cases, all of whom need to be acting consistently, you face the real statistical likelihood of fraud within the company itself. Any sufficiently large company will have employees that try to defraud it.

The upshot of this is that large companies handling many transactions like this, especially ones that will often be disputed, must implement security not just to prevent fraud from outside the company, but also inside.

Such security measures are often very difficult to work around by employees trying to do the right thing by customers who are in the right, but where something unusual has happened that those security systems didn't anticipate. I can imagine this often frustrates the intention to have a smoothly working system.

You also can't easily make changes to accommodate such corner cases without opening other security holes, both within and without the company. And it takes a long time to formulate and disseminate new protocols that your employees should work to. And then you have to communicate any changes in the way you handle things to your customers.

Running a company like this must be an absolute nightmare of logistics. And it is surely made worse in that Ebay seems to have the ability to authorise chargebacks and refunds in disputed cases that can then be appealed to PayPal itself.

But the alternative is in my opinion worse. As a buyer, you must pay for an item before receiving it. I am aware of so many complaints online of fraudulent sellers making off with tens of thousands from fraudulent sales, and there being nothing anyone can do about it because of banking privacy laws. Having a service like PayPal seems essential to reducing fraud in such online transactions.

In summary, I can perfectly understand PayPal wanting to perform a security check for every long time customer for whom a flag was raised by some security protocol.

And naturally, there are going to be many false positives, and many unfair decisions taken at such scale.

Independent arbitration would indeed seem like a good idea. But who is going to pay for independent arbitration for potentially millions of disputed transactions? The reality is, almost every single transaction that has already been appealed to PayPal that can be appealed easily to an independent arbiter, will be. So you simply double the (already high) cost of such a service.

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