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The heritability of fertility makes world population stabilization unlikely

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Re: The heritability of fertility makes world population stabilization unlikely

#11
post #5

Could someone with more time than me summarize how they reached the conclusion that fertility was heritable? It seems very counter-intuitive unless I'm misunderstanding the precise meaning of "heritable" that enables them to draw this conclusion.

So far the consesus was that migrants from traditonally child rich societies, acclimated already a generation later at local lower levels if prosperitiy and education level was reached as well. So it's the economy and social stability through the state that replaces children as the only "pension and care" provider for retirement.

FRANCE: "We show a convergence towards French standards that differs across groups of origin. Women of Southeast Asian descent deviate from the fertility pattern of their parents, while those of Turkish descent preserve their parents’ cultural heritage. These different paths of adaptation between groups partly reflect cultural distance between parents’ country and host country. They also depend on family social capital, family structure, and family values. Access to a higher level of education is a crucial factor in erasing differences between groups" https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-02081758/document

Re: The heritability of fertility makes world population stabilization unlikely

#12

admittedly i havent read the whole article, only the abstract, but: assuming that children from larger families will partially inherit the trait for having larger families themselves seems like a leap to me - arent family sizes in less developed societies generally considered to be either due to religious superstition or because more children = more workers to provide for the family a la victorian times? Once these f…

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Re: The heritability of fertility makes world population stabilization unlikely

#13

If this is true, then how do they explain population stabilization in, e.g., Europe, and other developed areas? Why shouldn't what worked for Europe work for the rest of the world?

Population didn’t stabilise, anywhere, ever. Nothing “worked” for Europe. Most of Eastern Europe is losing population to emigration. If you look at breeding populations rather than geographies you see some populations growing and others shrinking. You don’t see steady states.

The population behaviour of the British and that of descendants of those resident in Britain in 1900 are not the same thing. Focusing on nations obscures that fact.

Re: The heritability of fertility makes world population stabilization unlikely

#14
All of my grandparents come from big families. My grandmother on my father's side comes from a family of 12 children.

Yet my grandmother only had 4 children and my father only 2, and now I only have 1.

This is an anecdote, but I don't think heritabiliy has anything to do with it.

Large families simply happen due to poverty. When poor, you want more children because there's strength in numbers. Plus the women are staying home and can afford to have children.

Nowadays access to contraceptives is common and in Europe for example it's not feasible to have a lot of children due to costs (property, education, women having to eventually quit their job, etc).

Anyway, I think the evolution of poverty is a much greater predictor of population growth than anything else.

Re: The heritability of fertility makes world population stabilization unlikely

#15
This is ridiculous.

The replacement fertility rate to maintain population before modern medicine could be closer to ten than two not so long ago.

War, famine, disease, accidents, and infant mortality made it so surviving until you were old enough to start having your own children was rare and women were often pregnant or nursing continuously as long as they were fertile.

The premise of heritable fertility driving population and reproduction rates in humans is really far off. We're not having litters of kittens.

If it were true fertility rates could not possibly have dropped so far in so few generations after modern medicine and the insane reduction in violent death rates seen in the last thousand years.

Re: The heritability of fertility makes world population stabilization unlikely

#16

If this is true, then how do they explain population stabilization in, e.g., Europe, and other developed areas? Why shouldn't what worked for Europe work for the rest of the world?

Population didn’t stabilise, anywhere, ever. Nothing “worked” for Europe. Most of Eastern Europe is losing population to emigration. If you look at breeding populations rather than geographies you see some populations growing and others shrinking. You don’t see steady states. The population behaviour of the British and that of descendants of those resident in Britain in 1900 are not the same thing. Focusing on nation…

Sorry, I didn't make the best choice of words. With "stabilized" I really meant "stopped growing". And indeed, in practice this has resulted into shrinking, not a steady state.

Re: The heritability of fertility makes world population stabilization unlikely

#17

All of my grandparents come from big families. My grandmother on my father's side comes from a family of 12 children. Yet my grandmother only had 4 children and my father only 2, and now I only have 1. This is an anecdote, but I don't think heritabiliy has anything to do with it. Large families simply happen due to poverty. When poor, you want more children because there's strength in numbers. Plus the women are stay…

Yes this seems to miss actual examples of developed countries where fertility is approaching and dropping below replacement rate.

Re: The heritability of fertility makes world population stabilization unlikely

#18

All of my grandparents come from big families. My grandmother on my father's side comes from a family of 12 children. Yet my grandmother only had 4 children and my father only 2, and now I only have 1. This is an anecdote, but I don't think heritabiliy has anything to do with it. Large families simply happen due to poverty. When poor, you want more children because there's strength in numbers. Plus the women are stay…

Same trait may have different effects in different environments. In stone age, bad eyesight might have been a severe evolutionary disadvantage. After we invented eyeglasses, bad eyesight has no effect on your survival or number of children.

In a culture where large families were normal, perhaps genetic traits that push you towards having a large family were hidden by cultural aspects that made you have a large family. Only in an environment where having a large family is not the norm, will they surface and have an effect.

Just speculating here.

Re: The heritability of fertility makes world population stabilization unlikely

#19

All of my grandparents come from big families. My grandmother on my father's side comes from a family of 12 children. Yet my grandmother only had 4 children and my father only 2, and now I only have 1. This is an anecdote, but I don't think heritabiliy has anything to do with it. Large families simply happen due to poverty. When poor, you want more children because there's strength in numbers. Plus the women are stay…

> Large families simply happen due to poverty. When poor, you want more children because there's strength in numbers. Plus the women are staying home and can afford to have children.

Poverty and risk, fertility changes lag behind medical advances / availability e.g. in europe the large families were mostly around the first half of the 20th century (to soon after WWII), where culturally you wanted to have a fair number of children so you'd have some living to adult age (and also manpower on the farm) but medicine had also progressed and spread enough that almost all of them would survive to adult age.

Culture quickly caught up and the default assumption that all children will live to adult age means even farming families aren't really large anymore (not to mention machines & automation makes the manpower of many children less relevant).

Developed countries are mostly at the point where medical advances are getting available, leading to huge families because the cultural aspect hasn't caught up yet.

Re: The heritability of fertility makes world population stabilization unlikely

#20
post #5

Could someone with more time than me summarize how they reached the conclusion that fertility was heritable? It seems very counter-intuitive unless I'm misunderstanding the precise meaning of "heritable" that enables them to draw this conclusion.

"how they reached the conclusion that fertility was heritable?"

Isnt it obviously true? If you don't breed you don't pass on your non breeding genes, if you do breed....

Living organisms are literally breeding machines, that's all they really do. Natural selection favours those who do it better.

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