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California law banning bots from pretending to be real people without disclosure

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Re: California law banning bots from pretending to be real people without disclosure

#61
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are fairly easy to spot. One dead giveaway is their excessively chirpy voice. Or, as you did, just say something that puts them off script.

I guess you didn't watch the Google I/O presentation earlier this year (which is probably what this law is about I would guess): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5VN56jQMWM

It was selected out of a large number of tests they made. So while it sounds good, I'll remain skeptical for now.

Re: California law banning bots from pretending to be real people without disclosure

#62

California is setting a dangerous precident. If individual states each enact individual laws governing the internet, then only large companies will have the resources to follow them. We'll see a balkanization of the web wherein it's no longer very world wide. Small internet businesses will become harder and harder to start. Big monopolies will become entrenched. It's not pretty.

Or companies start acting like a sane person would. Not outsourcing communication to a bot without disclosure for example. And do so globally.

Or taking the European GDPR regulations as an example actually caring a little bit more about the user' data and enabling informed consent.

Re: California law banning bots from pretending to be real people without disclosure

#63
post #22

I felt stupid, but I have fallen victim to this on dpd.com while tracking a package. A helpful chat popup has appeared where I could request assistance from a support agent, but it was not disclosed that the agent is a bot. Needless to say I have spent a couple of minutes repeatedly asking a question, and even rephrasing it while being frustrated that this person does not seem to grasp my issue.

I run an IRC bot using Markov chains to generate text. It's a very crude method, so usually it's pure nonsense. But sometimes it says a bunch of sentences that make sense in a row to a new user, who then thinks it's a human.

Re: California law banning bots from pretending to be real people without disclosure

#64
post #41
post #22

I felt stupid, but I have fallen victim to this on dpd.com while tracking a package. A helpful chat popup has appeared where I could request assistance from a support agent, but it was not disclosed that the agent is a bot. Needless to say I have spent a couple of minutes repeatedly asking a question, and even rephrasing it while being frustrated that this person does not seem to grasp my issue.

I've been assuming that it's a pre-determined initial message, but that a real human in a low-cost country would immediately be involved if I bothered to respond. What portion of the chat pop up windows do you think are purely bot? Might any of them be purely human?

It really depends on the site. Some go to bots, some to script-followers, some to good dedicated support (shout out to datadog here). Some vary by time of the day.

But yes, some of them are contact boxes for real people.

Re: California law banning bots from pretending to be real people without disclosure

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1) No, proofreading is not authorship. It is when the substitution is both context-aware and not what you intended to write. > 2,3,4) A judge could reasonably find that you were attempting to circumvent the law and declare all of these as “bot”. Wait, so if someone sends you a question and the suggestions can detect from the context your answer, you're a bot because you chose the suggestion instead of typing out wo…

The law is not a programming language. Believing so is a common misconception amongst engineers, but depending on it as such is likely to lead to disappointment, frustration, anger, needless bickering, extended conflict, and vexatiously long, hard to read, and mostly unenforceable contracts.

The law should be a programming language. The fact that it's not isn't a feature, it's a bug.

Re: California law banning bots from pretending to be real people without disclosure

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are fairly easy to spot. One dead giveaway is their excessively chirpy voice. Or, as you did, just say something that puts them off script.

> Or, as you did, just say something that puts them off script. I don't know about that. Does Amazon's support use bots? Or are they just in a remote call center using auto translate to communicate with customers? Because in general, they appear like bots to me: they will parse for key words and reply to those, ignoring context and subtle differences that make their replies sound weird.

> Does Amazon's support use bots?

Depends on the section of Amazon. AWS enterprise support does not.

Re: California law banning bots from pretending to be real people without disclosure

#67
post #35

Bots are communications tools configured and deployed by human beings, at least until they can pass the Turing Test. Human beings have human rights to express themselves however they wish.

> Human beings have human rights to express themselves however they wish.

No. Commercial speech usually has disclosure requirements, even in the US (see the Zauderer case), which humans have to follow. This is just another case of compelled commercial speech.

Re: California law banning bots from pretending to be real people without disclosure

#68
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law is not a programming language. Believing so is a common misconception amongst engineers, but depending on it as such is likely to lead to disappointment, frustration, anger, needless bickering, extended conflict, and vexatiously long, hard to read, and mostly unenforceable contracts.

The law should be a programming language. The fact that it's not isn't a feature, it's a bug.

It really shouldn't. It will never be able to accomodate every possible case. There is a reason why stories about drones going around and enforcing the law like a programming language is considered a dystopic setting.

Re: California law banning bots from pretending to be real people without disclosure

#69
I am reminded of Thoreau's quote: "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."

The root of the problem is not that we have bots, but that we have normalised lying and deception as part of everyday business. We allow companies to pretend that bots are human beings, and allow call-center employees in third-world countries to pretend (even sometimes though elaborate lying) that they are located in the same country as you. We allow companies to tell outrageous untruths in their advertising - see the Samsung ad which they're currently being hauled over the coals for in Australia.

That's the real problem here, and the one we need to fix on a general level, not by band-aid regulations over whichever dishonesty has managed to irritate enough state representatives.

Re: California law banning bots from pretending to be real people without disclosure

#70

If I make a generated face that speaks my stuff with a generated voice, is it a bot?

Well, amusing that people thought this was wholly irrelevant. Here's what I was thinking of when I said that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksb3KD6DfSI

Also amusing that there are two confident opposite opinions in response.

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