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Assholes: A Probing Examination

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Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#51

Post by NoodleIncident »

sz4kerto wrote: post #47

Asshole: people who you don't like. Every interaction with others should make you feel good about yourself otherwise the other person is an asshole. You are never an asshole by definition, of course. Maybe a victim, but asshole -- never. Diversity means having people around who think and behave the same way as you do but have different hairdo or different thing between their legs. Introverted or depressed people are…

There is a straightforward list of specific behaviors early in the article. None of it is defined by how anyone else feels; that's just the effect of someone who engages in that asshole behavior on a regular basis. The next comment down and probably half of the readers are trying to figure out if they're the asshole themselves, so I don't know where you got the idea that "you" are never the asshole.

(Sure is great how HN shows me this wonderful comment on top because it happened to be posted 9 minutes before I loaded the comments)

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#53

Post by skrebbel »

sdrothrock wrote: post #39
klenwell wrote: post #7

> Asshole behavior begets additional asshole behavior from others. Non-assholes are hardened into assholes over time to survive, and a spiral of incivility reigns. I've been infected by this before. Never again. (I prefer to slap up so I ended up getting shown the door.) Before we go through a hiring round with my team nowadays, I like us to review what I've seen approvingly referred to over on Metafilter as The Babo…

> I prefer to slap up so I ended up getting shown the door. What does "slap up" mean?

Being an asshole to the boss, I think.

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#54

Post by sz4kerto »

NoodleIncident wrote: post #51
sz4kerto wrote: post #47

Asshole: people who you don't like. Every interaction with others should make you feel good about yourself otherwise the other person is an asshole. You are never an asshole by definition, of course. Maybe a victim, but asshole -- never. Diversity means having people around who think and behave the same way as you do but have different hairdo or different thing between their legs. Introverted or depressed people are…

There is a straightforward list of specific behaviors early in the article. None of it is defined by how anyone else feels; that's just the effect of someone who engages in that asshole behavior on a regular basis. The next comment down and probably half of the readers are trying to figure out if they're the asshole themselves, so I don't know where you got the idea that "you" are never the asshole. (Sure is great ho…

I'm somewhat satirical of course. However:

"Here’s a simple test: if someone walks away from another person feeling bad about themselves, they were probably interacting with an asshole."

I'll tell you that eg as manager there is no way that some of your conversations won't end with the other person feeling somewhat bad about themselves. You have to fire people. You have to explain that some behavior was clearly wrong. Sometimes you need to explain that despite best efforts the person is just simply not developing quickly enough professionally. That hurts, however you put it (you can do it carefully, sure). Hey, you will need to explain assholes that they're doing the wrong thing. Are you sure you can do this without making them feel bad about themselves?

Just be very careful with labeling people. It's usually not a great strategy, especially if you use terms like asshole. Try to be emphatic, understanding. Labeling people is one way of being an asshole.

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#55

Post by aitchnyu »

cheez wrote: post #31

I .. thought I was an asshole. I am a saint... Good article!

> Eyerolling, sighing, or otherwise negative body language... Tersely worded group e-mails that make people feel uncomfortable... Interrupting people who aren’t done talking...

I need a dash of these, but I will hate anybody using it all the time.

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#56

Post by mlang23 »

sz4kerto wrote: post #47

Asshole: people who you don't like. Every interaction with others should make you feel good about yourself otherwise the other person is an asshole. You are never an asshole by definition, of course. Maybe a victim, but asshole -- never. Diversity means having people around who think and behave the same way as you do but have different hairdo or different thing between their legs. Introverted or depressed people are…

I agree. This article reads as if asshole != narcissistic supply

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#57

Post by cousin_it »

NoodleIncident wrote: post #51
sz4kerto wrote: post #47

Asshole: people who you don't like. Every interaction with others should make you feel good about yourself otherwise the other person is an asshole. You are never an asshole by definition, of course. Maybe a victim, but asshole -- never. Diversity means having people around who think and behave the same way as you do but have different hairdo or different thing between their legs. Introverted or depressed people are…

There is a straightforward list of specific behaviors early in the article. None of it is defined by how anyone else feels; that's just the effect of someone who engages in that asshole behavior on a regular basis. The next comment down and probably half of the readers are trying to figure out if they're the asshole themselves, so I don't know where you got the idea that "you" are never the asshole. (Sure is great ho…

I agree with sz4kerto, these rules are too vague. For example, the rule against "starting shit and troublemaking" can end up being mostly used by assholes against non-assholes.

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#58

Post by Iv »

rodhilton wrote: post #28
Iv wrote: post #13

Unfortunately, we have plenty of examples of successful companies where toxic behavior is rampant. I agree that firing assholes improves a company's morale and environment, but sadly there is little evidence that it actually help a company's business.

I linked to as much hard evidence as I could but I'll agree that it's a little light. My hunch, just based on my own observation doing this for 20 years, is that an asshole is like a black hole of productivity, draining it from everyone else to such an extent that they're simply not worth having around, and that no matter how Brilliant they are, the rest of the team can figure out their areas of expertise with the mo…

Disclaimer: I am an independent contractor mostly because I fled what I consider structural defects of the corporate world, so a bit biased.

Isn't it a matter of management though? Assholes can be productive to a company if you have a good manager doing damage control and sinking time into firewalling the asshole.

Given the prevalence of this disease and the abundance of managers, it seems like a good way to increase the hiring pool of a company.

As a manager, you want to contain an asshole just enough so that coworkers do not leave, also enough so that the asshole feels they have to make up for their social behavior with additional skill and hard work (which is not hard, they are often competitive).

I believe (and that's the reason why I don't want to employ people) that the optimal point for a business is when you maintain your employees on the edge of quitting. Assholes create stress and competition, an environment where projects often strive and individuals wither.

All the ethical managers or business starters I have known have been replaced by more assholish versions. This could be anecdotal evidence of course, but I think that assholes are better suited for a corporate world of greed and competition.

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#59

Post by glangdale »

This article is overly fixated on overt assholery. Much of the worst asshole behavior I've encountered has been done by people who are outwardly polite and high functioning and have often never had a cross word for anyone.

I would much rather get a tersely worded group email (ooo) than have to do someone else's job for them.

Let's be frank. The #1 asshole thing not mentioned here is (shouting and swearing alert) NOT DOING YOUR FUCKING JOB. This is an immense source of frustration for other people, whether because they have to do the person's job for them, or because the person's failure to do their job creates disasters.

In many of the situations I've seen (or, frankly, participated in) where someone is behaving somewhat like an asshole, the root of the situation is that (a) someone isn't doing their actual job in a remotely competent way, (b) that someone isn't doing anything to fix that situation and (c) management doesn't know or care.

Re: Assholes: A Probing Examination

#60

Post by deanmoriarty »

rodhilton wrote: post #28
Iv wrote: post #13

Unfortunately, we have plenty of examples of successful companies where toxic behavior is rampant. I agree that firing assholes improves a company's morale and environment, but sadly there is little evidence that it actually help a company's business.

I linked to as much hard evidence as I could but I'll agree that it's a little light. My hunch, just based on my own observation doing this for 20 years, is that an asshole is like a black hole of productivity, draining it from everyone else to such an extent that they're simply not worth having around, and that no matter how Brilliant they are, the rest of the team can figure out their areas of expertise with the mo…

I have seen that a couple times, mostly in startups: a highly functioning brilliant jerk was doing a pretty good job leading teams, but they had no patience towards poor performers and that caused morale issues.

Eventually the person got managed out (not fired, just isolated from the teams) and upper management thought the team would just eventually thrive after some short loss of productivity, but that never happened: the poor performers were put in front of the customer who commissioned the project (role that was usually handled by the jerk, who was highly competent at that due to their technical brilliance and assertive personality even with the customer), and after a few round trips the customer smelled the incompetency and literally said “we’re going to quit this project, we feel like there’s no technical direction lately”. Massive loss for the company, in the 7 figures. It almost caused the company to fail due to that being the largest customer at that phase.

In those cases, the jerk did an amazing job at keeping a very productive technical communication with the customer, and keep the high performers on track towards what really needed to be done in those projects.

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