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Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

beth.technology

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Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#101

Post by pmiller2 »

Udik wrote: post #99
pmiller2 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gold has value because it’s useful, among other things. That base level of value is why people started making coins out of it in the first place. It’s properties as a physical metal make it easy to store, transport, and protect, all of which are good properties to have as a currency.

You didn't answer my question. Things have a value because people value them. Nothing has an "intrinsic" value, not bitcoins, not gold, not dollars, not food. I am not a bitcoin fanboy, but I find strange that many seem unable to grasp the fact that most of the value of anything lies in the willingness of other people to give us something in exchange for it, not in the good itself.

Things do have intrinsic value based on their utility. Would you say food has value because it keeps you alive, or does your life also have no value? Could it be that you’re willing to trade USD for a quantity of food because the food is more useful?

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#102

Post by pmiller2 »

sedeki wrote: post #93
pmiller2 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having value isn’t a selling point? You’re digging yourself into a hole here.

I was referring to government force. "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

You said it had value. That’s literally what you wrote. The reason is irrelevant. Value is value.

If you could think of a way to show BTC has value, I’d accept that as a selling point of BTC.

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#103

Post by thtthings »

marcosdumay wrote: post #86
cookingrobot wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that definition startup investors are speculators not “investors”. That seems like an overly narrow definition of the word, compared to how it’s normally used.

What startups are those that can never produce income? And why are people working on them?

How do you know they will never produce income? Can you see the future? If you can, please tell me.

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#104

Post by ziddoap »

pmiller2 wrote: post #100
ziddoap wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't remember saying anything you can buy with USD you can buy with BTC. I never even hinted that BTC was a replacement for USD in any sense. I don't know about everyone else, but here's what I mean when I say you can make money on BTC: Buy low, sell high.

You said people were arguing BTC had no use. I’m asking what I can use it for? And, when you say buy low, sell high, low and high relative to what?

Do you want a literal list of things you can do with BTC? I feel like your trying to draw me into an argument I never made. I don't think BTC is going to replace USD, I never said it's going to replace USD. But you're in an alternate reality if you don't think people are doing anything with it. What do you think people are doing with BTC? Just buying it and putting it into cold storage forever?

And again, your second question is just baiting for an argument I never made. Of course I mean relative to fiat currency, what else would I have meant?

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#105

Post by pmiller2 »

mopsi wrote: post #94
pmiller2 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Industrial demand isn’t the entire source of gold’s value, that’s true. I was more referring to it’s usefuln being the source of its value 2700 years ago when people started making coins out of it. I would argue that, beyond industrial demand and use in jewelry, the thing driving the price is primarily speculation. > ...if you sell a car for gold, you can expect that gold to be worth the value of a car a year or two…

> What you’re saying is that the car to gold ratio should be constant if your understanding is correct, right? No. I am aware that the value of gold fluctuates, but it is safer than many national currencies, stocks of failing companies or overvalued real-estate. The amount of gold in the world is known and stable and there's no way to massively "print" gold to crash its value. This stable supply is mimicked by algori…

Can you spot the effect of the Cyprus bailout on the value of the EUR in this chart? https://www.fx-exchange.com/currencyimages/2013/eur/the-year...

What happened immediately after that?

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#106

Post by DougN7 »

thtthings wrote: post #54
liquidise wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This strikes me as a somewhat semantic argument. Many stocks don't pay dividends. Flipping houses would also fall outside of your definition of investing. Buying gold has also been a relatively safe "investment" strategy as well, speculation or not. Every form of investment is, at its core, speculation on some level. If i pour my savings into Apple and they tank, the dividends would pale in comparison to my losses.

Every asset that produces an Income or has a possibility of producing income in the future is an investment. Everything else is speculation. Buying a commercial property and renting it out is an investment. Buying a house in the hope of selling it for more in the future is not investment. Same goes for Gold, Bitcoin, momentum trading in stocks in not investment. Buying a stock that does not pay dividend but is a real…

I like your definitions but it seems [buying] stock that pays no dividend (despite the business behind it) is still speculation. At best you can hope it will pay a dividend some day, which is speculation.

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#107

Post by pmiller2 »

ziddoap wrote: post #104
pmiller2 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said people were arguing BTC had no use. I’m asking what I can use it for? And, when you say buy low, sell high, low and high relative to what?

Do you want a literal list of things you can do with BTC? I feel like your trying to draw me into an argument I never made. I don't think BTC is going to replace USD, I never said it's going to replace USD. But you're in an alternate reality if you don't think people are doing anything with it. What do you think people are doing with BTC? Just buying it and putting it into cold storage forever? And again, your second…

Ok, what legitimate, legal use does BTC have where it has an actual advantage over USD, then? If there is none, then that’s what I mean by “BTC is useless.”

My second question was getting at precisely the same point: that fiat currency is strictly superior to BTC.

If you can’t provide a single legitimate use for it other than as a magical money machine, I would take that as evidence that it’s useless.

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#108

Post by Udik »

pmiller2 wrote: post #101
Udik wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't answer my question. Things have a value because people value them. Nothing has an "intrinsic" value, not bitcoins, not gold, not dollars, not food. I am not a bitcoin fanboy, but I find strange that many seem unable to grasp the fact that most of the value of anything lies in the willingness of other people to give us something in exchange for it, not in the good itself.

Things do have intrinsic value based on their utility. Would you say food has value because it keeps you alive, or does your life also have no value? Could it be that you’re willing to trade USD for a quantity of food because the food is more useful?

> Would you say food has value because it keeps you alive

Sure. So I suppose you invest in groceries: I mean, everybody needs food, right? Sure money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pDTiFkXgEE

So, can I sell you those 10 bitcoins?

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#109

Post by pmiller2 »

Udik wrote: post #108
pmiller2 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things do have intrinsic value based on their utility. Would you say food has value because it keeps you alive, or does your life also have no value? Could it be that you’re willing to trade USD for a quantity of food because the food is more useful?

> Would you say food has value because it keeps you alive Sure. So I suppose you invest in groceries: I mean, everybody needs food, right? Sure money. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pDTiFkXgEE So, can I sell you those 10 bitcoins?

I never said food was an investment. I said it has value. Big difference.

As for buying BTC, you’re clearly not paying attention to my comments here. ;) The only reason I would want 10 BTC is to immediately sell them to some sucker for more than I paid for them.

So, yes, I would buy 10 BTC from you at a very steep discount, but not at the market price.

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#110

Post by gerikson »

grubles wrote: post #66
gerikson wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any live sidechains in production? I thought the team behind them moved on to the Lightning Network.

Blockstream launched the Liquid Network sidechain fairly recently.[0] The features that distinguish it from the Bitcoin main chain are fast settlement times (1-minute blocks), confidential transactions (versus BTC's transparent txs), and the ability to issue unique assets such as tokenized fiat, crypto assets, and other pretty exciting digitized assets. [0] https://blockstream.com/liquid/ Disclosure: I work at Blocks…

Thanks, I’ve missed that development.
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