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Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

beth.technology

71–80 of 137 posts

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#71
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a strange argument. Nobody can pay their taxes in gold, still gold has a value, right? And on the other hand, the value of the USD can fall to practically zero, as it happened to many other currencies before, despite the governments of the respective countries imposing taxes in those currencies. Bitcoins are, of course, nothing . But it's a nothing that is pretty guaranteed to stay, to be in rigidly…

Gold has value because it’s useful, among other things. That base level of value is why people started making coins out of it in the first place. It’s properties as a physical metal make it easy to store, transport, and protect, all of which are good properties to have as a currency.

Industrial demand is only half the story. The value of gold also lies within the fact that unlike fiat currency, it cannot be created out of thin air. Global stockpiles of gold are well known, annual production is small and predictable.

This means that if you sell a car for gold, you can expect that gold to be worth the value of a car a year or two from now. Fiat money does not offer such assurance, it can lose most of its value almost overnight if government turns on printing presses or fucks up in some other way (see Turkish lira or Venezuelan bolivar).

Cryptocurrencies mimick the same properties of gold. Their "base value" comes from the speed/ease of transactions and other useful features (eg cannot be confiscated). Their supply is algorithmically limited and well-known in advance.

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I beg to differ. Alice wants to send $1 to Bob via Bitcoin. Alice needs some Bitcoin to do so. Hoddler sells some Bitcoin to Alice for $1.01 Alice sends that to Bob. Now Bob wants to change it to $. Hoddler buys back for $1 Hoddler has a return on his investment.

You left out transaction fees. Factor that in, and transferring directly via USD is simpler, more secure (if not technically, then via insurance), and probably cheaper.

That's irrelevant to the question of whether it's an investment or not. Bad investments are still investments.

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#74
post #22
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's proven to be very, very useful for anonymous blackmail à la Cryptolocker. Also quite useful for buying all sorts of contraband, from guns to drugs.

Also as Warren Buffett put it: "It’s a gambling device… there’s been a lot of frauds connected with it. There’s been disappearances, so there’s a lot lost on it. Bitcoin hasn’t produced anything." But it's a good gambling device and people like to gamble. I both think it's kind of nuts and hold a few bitcoins.

Warren Buffet is biased and ignorant. I'd give an arm to hear what he said about Google, FB and other dotcoms when he passed on investing in the 2000's

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#75
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've accidentally stumbled upon the Bitcoin's true strength in your own answer. > unless the group governing it decides to 'fix' those flaws, but there's another issue, I don't want you messing with how my money works... That's exactly the reason why arguably technically superior projects are worth less - they are constantly messing with how their money works. The community around Bitcoin, it's so called "immune sy…

This is inaccurate. Bitcoin could handle many, many more transactions per second than it currently does with less risk and technical complexity than has been introduced since we hit the blocksize limit in 2017. There's a lot of money making sure it does not get bigger. Instead it's being rate limited with high fees and limited throughput to force transactions onto "layer 2" systems that allow 3rd party companies (iro…

How does that make the previous post inaccurate?

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#76
I'm starting to turn the corner on this; if you can pick it up on one of its lows, which are pretty extreme as far as I know, like 1/4 of peak, and hold without regard for daily movement, you will probably make money.

I think Bitcoin is largely taking value from individuals trying to stash money pilfered from the public in some way (usually through their public offices, but sometimes through embezzlement, theft, or a previous illegal accumulation that has to be moved in the face of imminent arrest), and opportunities for this sort of large-scale theft come rarely. So upward movements are caused by small groups and happen very quickly. After the theft is made, the first priority is to get the money out of the country (or tied for first with getting your children out of the country), then to get one's self out of the country. The tolerance for loss in exfiltrating this cash is virtually unlimited, in exchange for speed.

Small pops and falls caused by individual incidents will sometimes coincide making a larger pop, and periodically some legal loophole (or prosecution pressure) will open up in come country that puts a lot of people in this situation at the same time. This is inevitable. The small pops are muted due to the selling of previous market moving buyers. The big pops are virtuous circles; they exhaust the supply of previous smugglers, who cash out, and the resulting acceleration in the upward price movement filters to the media, where knife-catchers step in. You probably want to time your sales to the knife-catchers, anticipating the first articles reporting on the price rise.

There will always be western countries where you can cash out. There's no way to suppress a currency designed for money laundering in a west that is entirely financial services and intellectual property; there will always be some official that can be bribed, or a country that needs the tax receipts. Bitcoin can do to nations what Uber and AirBnB do to cities.

I'd bet the floor on bitcoin would probably be a good measure to determine growth in the general world corruption rate; the more good pops, the more people feel like they can hold a little bit longer.

Think of cartels burying cash in fields, and how much they'd be willing to pay to make it spendable. The only other option is to burn it. Going into business to help them from the comfort of your living room is not a bad business.

This article is not good, though, just nonsense reassurance mostly (bitcoin is small, but things that become big start small, so bitcoin will be big.) Worse, the more large institutions are holding bitcoin, the less benefit for individual investors, not more, because they'll absorb the big pops, and do it in a way that they end up holding an optimum amount of BTC all the time using their international nature and their ability to shift losses to offset gains for tax purposes (in short, regulatory arbitrage.) Bitcoin could ultimately end up as an exclusive partnership between thieves avoiding capture and banks avoiding taxes. A sort of high-speed virtualized real estate.

/flight of fancy

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You left out transaction fees. Factor that in, and transferring directly via USD is simpler, more secure (if not technically, then via insurance), and probably cheaper.

That's irrelevant to the question of whether it's an investment or not. Bad investments are still investments.

That’s correct. I was refuting the idea that BTC has any advantages over USD in this scenario.

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#78

Bitcoin is not an investment. It has no underlying rate of return. When you invest in stocks you get dividends. When you invest in bonds you collect coupons. When you invest in real estate you collect rent. Bitcoin is speculation. You are just hoping somebody comes.along and pays more for it than you did. In that sense it's more like gold and silver.

There is a widely held sentiment among "serious" bitcoiners that the entire financial system will ultimately cede to cryptocurrency, with bitcoin on top, and it is at this point they expect to rent-seek the utter bejeezus out of the rest of society. goes by the meme "hyperbitcoinization"

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#79
post #3

Not one word here about why BTC should be worth anything at all. Who cares if someone spent time and electricity to mine it? The USD is, along with every other major, government-backed currency, already an almost 100% digital currency. I don’t see any advantage there. In fact, BTC has the disadvantage of no major government backing it. If nobody is required to accept it, and I can’t do anything with it otherwise, wha…

> Not one word here about why BTC should be worth anything at all.

There's no "should". Moral theories about the propriety of the value of currencies are not material. Bitcoin has value because people are willing to trade valuable stuff for it

Re: Will Bitcoin Make a Good Investment?

#80
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly does it mean when people say that a currency is backed by a government? ”Backed” to me implies, e.g., redeemable for gold which is clearly not the case for the US dollar. Is it that the government issue bonds denominated in that currency? But that has nothing to do with the money supply per se...? Please explain.

It means it’s legal tender for all debts, public and private.

The Zimbabwe government forced everyone to use their currency (Zimbabwe dollar, up until 2008 iirc, pretty sure they still have problems today...). Of course forcing everyone to use this currency created artificial demand for it. However, I don't see why adding "artificial demand" is an argument against bitcoin.

EDIT: But sure, if government-backed means they force people to accept the currency, then it will have value. I don't see this as a good selling point though. Not trying to be sarcastic.

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