Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook • Hacker News Board

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#311

Post by tzakrajs » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:37 PM UTC

peeters wrote: post #242

tzakrajs wrote: post #222

I’m a tiny bit upset. I really liked the keys becoming lower profile. I don’t get any joy out of expending extra energy depressing buttons. For example, mechanical keyboards give me extreme RSI wrist pain from straining to push down all of the switches. Secretly I was hoping Apple would create a haptic capacitive touch keyboard with a display behind it.

Is it possible you were thinking you had to bottom out the keys on a mechanical keyboard? Good switches have a fairly long travel, but it's important to note they're not designed to be bottomed out, they're designed to be pushed to the activation point and then released. Where that activation point is may be harder to detect on some switches, but "clicky" switches like Cherry Blues have a strong tactile indicator.

I totally agree about bottoming out. It's more about the amount of force needed to trigger the switch, which on a capactive touch would be 0. I use o-rings too to decrease the length of the throw and to make bottoming out quieter and less impactful if it happens on accident. Mechanical keyboards just don't agree with my hands and wrists sadly.

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#312

Post by fleetingmoments » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:37 PM UTC

parasubvert wrote: post #236

hoorayimhelping wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the warm and fuzzy feeling USB-C gives nerds, cause of the open standard and interoperability, and cause it only takes one attempt to actually plug it in; but I just cannot fathom how Apple replaced Magsafe with USB-C. Magsafe was one of those magical Apple features from the mid 2000s that just delight and work incredibly well and almost seem like science fiction. It's not like they had shitty power adapters an…

Magsafe adapters had quality issues. My company is all-Mac (3000 employees now), and you'd not believe the turnover of Magsafe power adapters frayed, blackened, corroding.

Exactly. USB C is so much better. Charging on either side and only replacing the cable and not the whole adapter if there is a connection issue.

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#313

Post by porker » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:37 PM UTC

parasubvert wrote: post #235

lstamour wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USB-C has lots of advantages, but it took 2-3 dark years before we started seeing commonly available peripherals that take advantage of the built-in protocols such as driver-less USB-C Ethernet adapters. I think USB-C on the iPad Pro and various phones has done more to turn USB-C into a viable standard than putting it on the laptops, since pros would obviously prefer existing and new Thunderbolt devices to USB-C devi…

I found the Magsafe adapter cords would fray, corrode, and blacken pretty easily, becoming a fire hazard. Every Macbook I owned, I would need at least one replacement over a 3 year period. The amount of time taken to re-plugin it in vs. times it saved my laptop from flying, really it was an overrated feature. USB-C comes out easily enough. Don't get me wrong, I liked Magsafe. But I don't understand the passion for it…

> I found the Magsafe adapter cords would fray, corrode, and blacken pretty easily, becoming a fire hazard. Every Macbook I owned, I would need at least one replacement over a 3 year period.

My Magsafe power supply is a decade old, and except for being dirty has no problems.

You've repeated it a couple of times in this thread, and this doesn't hold up.

1. The cord is standard plastic sheathing: how does that fray?

2. Are you in a damp atmosphere for it to corrode?

3. You don't qualify what "blackening" is. Do you mean become dirty, or burnt?

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#314

Post by bluedino » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:37 PM UTC

starsinspace wrote: post #297

parasubvert wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, I use a retina MBP touchbar and really don't agree. Apple has made some missteps but it's still the best pro laptop for my uses. Over two years with one replaced keyboard (because I spilled wine on it!) and no sticking keys. USB-C is awesome. I can reuse all my 3rd party and Apple adapters for my USB-C peripherals, including tablets and the Nintendo Switch. In retrospect, Magsafe wasn't that great (comes off too…

> Moving back to older USB ports really would make no sense. They're obsolete. I sure wish I could join you in the year 2030 where USB-C is everywhere, but unfortunately I’m stuck here in 2019 and USB-A is still the de-facto standard on just about everything. It’s nice to design a product to be forward-looking and adopting standards early when it’s foreseeable that they will soon become big. Like the Mac mini 2018, w…

I bought a USB-C to alighting adapter for my phone, got USB-C Sony wireless headphones, and a couple USB-C adapters for my regular USB 3 devices. Kept all my Thunderbolt peripherals (bought a TB2->3 adapter), and a hub and a video adapter or two (HDMI and Display Port)

$200 later I’m happy but when I use my old 2013 MBP I feel kind of slighted.

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#315

Post by ryanlol » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:38 PM UTC

_asummers wrote: post #281

puranjay wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do people see removing Magsafe as a downgrade? My wife's Air has a Magsafe and the damn thing just keeps falling off. My new Air's charger has none of those problems. And if the cable gets torn, I can just plug in another. Even better, I can charge my other devices from the same cable. Right now, I'm charging my OnePlus phone with the same cable. This was definitely one case where Apple actually practiced some pr…

Have you ever tripped over a cable with the Magsafe connector while attached to your laptop? It comes off, like it's supposed to. What about the USB-C connectors? The laptop comes off the desk.

What is the use case for tripping over your laptop charger cable?

I just can’t see myself having to do that very frequently, but I definitely remember the constant struggle that was keeping the magsafe cable plugged in.

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#316

Post by bmurphy1976 » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:39 PM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #305

aleem wrote: post #188

Apple has squandered a lot of its goodwill. It reminds me of my relationship with Microsoft products. As long as they were shipping, they were making money in the short term because people were coerced to buy in. For 5 damn years the Air didn't get a Retina display. Right now, I can't buy 2.8Ghz Macbook Pro unless I get the TouchBar. I can't buy an Air unless I settle for much lower specs. The dongles and USB-C are a…

I just last week bought a pristine, maxed-out 2015 MacBook Pro. Yet I think you're wrong about most of this. * I hate magsafe. I've owned a dozen of these and almost all of them have come apart just behind the magsafe connector. Expensive, proprietary, and fragile. I would much much rather have USB-C than shell out $90 every two years. * USB-C is great. A bunch of different ports means carrying a bunch of different c…

> The new keyboard. The ergonomics are fine, but I am hard on keyboards and nevertheless expect 5+ years of duty (my last machine was bought new in 2013, and just wasn't cutting it with 8G of RAM). I can't have an unreliable and expensive keyboard.

I just don't get it. I've had my MPB with the new keyboard for 9 months now and I hate it more than ever. The ergonomics are absolutely terrible, the layout (particularly the arrow keys is terrible) the feedback is terrible, the fragility is terrible, the touchbar is terrible.

9 months and I still can't type for shit on this keyboard. This is coming from somebody who can type over 100 WPM with 98% accuracy. On a normal keyboard, when warmed up, I can correct many mistakes without even looking at the keyboard OR the monitor. I just know I made a mistake and my fingers know what to do to fix it (a side-effect of having done dictation and typing out handwritten papers/notes professionally for a couple years).

They keyboard is objective crap. It's past time for it to go, or at least give us an option.

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#317

Post by pentae » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:40 PM UTC

kenneth wrote: post #17

Once I got used to the new keyboards, I actually far prefer them. Ditto with the TouchBar. Yeah, I'm a heretic I suppose. Keyboard: pleasant clicky-ness and little movement required. Thin AF. TouchBar: customized with BetterTouchTools to be a hybrid of my most often-used shortcuts (expand menu, alfred, fantastical, window management, and 1password on the left, notification center and lock screen on the right) and mus…

Yeah after a year getting used to it I thought the same. Then I went back and used my old Macbook Air while it was getting repaired (for keyboard issues, of course). After using the old MBA keyboard for more than 30 seconds I changed my mind pretty quickly.

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#318

Post by Dunedan » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:41 PM UTC

labcomputer wrote: post #283

parasubvert wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, I use a retina MBP touchbar and really don't agree. Apple has made some missteps but it's still the best pro laptop for my uses. Over two years with one replaced keyboard (because I spilled wine on it!) and no sticking keys. USB-C is awesome. I can reuse all my 3rd party and Apple adapters for my USB-C peripherals, including tablets and the Nintendo Switch. In retrospect, Magsafe wasn't that great (comes off too…

> Also, on what planet did anyone have a Magsafe cord over 2m? It was fixed to the adapter. The 2m usb-c cable is removable, add it with the 1m power cable and it is a further reach than any prior Mac laptop adapter I've had, though I suppose third party ones exist. The power brick had a 2m detachable line-voltage cable, and fixed 2m low voltage cable. 2 + 2 = 4. I can sit 4m from the wall and charge using only the p…

> The power brick had a 2m detachable line-voltage cable, and fixed 2m low voltage cable. 2 + 2 = 4. I can sit 4m from the wall and charge using only the power adapter that came with the computer.

Still the same with the USB-C power adapters, except that the detachable extension cord isn't included with new devices anymore. You can either use one from an old Mac, buy one from Apple (with the usual Apple-tax (https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK122LL/A/power-adapter-e...), or get a cheap third-party one (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=apple+power+adapter+extension+cab...).

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#319

Post by rando4321 » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:43 PM UTC

lajawfe wrote: post #232

I can't stop but speculate if departure of Ive had anything to do with this. I guess there was a lot of push-back internally about this, but because of Ive, they had to endure 4 generations of butterfly switches. Touchbar also is just a resource hog for nothing extraordinarily useful. I haven't seen people use it too often. I bet they did user studies and found out that the Touchbar wasn't the new interaction method…

It's seemed wildly obvious to me that Ive, whatever good work he did under Jobs, did horrible work without Jobs to constrain him.

I hope that Apple returns to making quality hardware without Ive present.

Re: Kuo: Apple to include new scissor switch keyboard in MacBook

#320

Post by hombre_fatal » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 3:43 PM UTC

eugeniub wrote: post #296

_asummers wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever tripped over a cable with the Magsafe connector while attached to your laptop? It comes off, like it's supposed to. What about the USB-C connectors? The laptop comes off the desk.

This assumes that Magsafe laptops will never fall off the table, even if pulled at less than ideal angles, and USB-C laptops will always fall off the table, even if pulled at the perfect angle for unplugging.

Unless you read it uncharitably and require disclaimer clauses in every internet comment, their comment just suggests that one is better than the other and points out a practical and reasonable scenario that demonstrates this difference.

I really don't want an HN where we have to constantly hedge against an absolute reading of our comments with disclaimers like "btw, there are exceptions."