Terrible title. Either I skimmed the end of the article or there was nothing about a bailout in there.
The entire article summaries why there is probably going to be a bailout.
The Coming Boeing Bailout?
41–50 of 189 posts
Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was honestly under the impression that the provided checklist did not work, as it included elements that did not work in the 737-MAX as expected when coming from earlier models. Plus the fact that the forces were to strong, the pilot could not manually correct the course. Besides, did the pilots have opportunity to read and implement the new checklist?
There was no new checklist. (Arguably, this may be a problem.) The existing checklist was unchanged from other 737s and the required actions were all "memory items" (items which must be recalled and implemented by the crew from memory, prior to referencing and completing the written checklist in the QRH). Any 737 crewmember would have had to have demonstrated those checklist items, from memory, prior to receiving the…
It's not just the checklist: the experience of MCAS-induced trim runaway is significantly different from that which NG pilots are trained for, to the point where additional training seems necessary. Boeing set up the conditions for an accident by first hiding, and then downplaying, those differences, apparently to avoid additional training being required.
I have seen some suggestions that this was also the reason for not having MCAS compare the two AofA sources to detect a fault, as the fault would have to be reported, and the documentation of that indicator would reveal the existence of MCAS.
Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?
#43Boeing and the US government recently killed the Canadian aviation industry by putting on 300% duties on our main manufacturer because of a government bailout it received. See: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/us-issues... As a result Bombardier, Canadian's only large aviation manufacturer, was sold to AirBus: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/bombardie... The cause was a Canadian p…
> But if the US government bails out Boeing, should countries around the world also impose business destroying duties of 300% on Boeing because of the unfair government support?
It’s not a question of fairness but of self-interest. If it’s in those countries’ best interest (accounting for things like soured international relationships and whathaveyou) then the answer is “yes”.
Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
There was no new checklist. (Arguably, this may be a problem.) The existing checklist was unchanged from other 737s and the required actions were all "memory items" (items which must be recalled and implemented by the crew from memory, prior to referencing and completing the written checklist in the QRH). Any 737 crewmember would have had to have demonstrated those checklist items, from memory, prior to receiving the…
It's not just the checklist: the experience of MCAS-induced trim runaway is significantly different from that which NG pilots are trained for, to the point where additional training seems necessary. Boeing set up the conditions for an accident by first hiding, and then downplaying, those differences, apparently to avoid additional training being required. I have seen some suggestions that this was also the reason for…
I agree with you, hence the "arguably, this may be a problem" parenthetical.
Nevertheless, the provided checklist did work as evidenced by Lion Air 043.
Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?
#45How did Boeing make miracles in civilian aircraft? In short, the the civilian engineers were in charge. And it fell apart because the company, due to a merger, killed its engineering-first culture Uhm, this makes me think about the engineering-first of Google. I wonder if Google will end in the same path...
IF?! When is the last time you performed a Google search? The real non-paid results aren’t even above the fold.
Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why necessitate? Businesses sometimes go under, that’s how the system works. The government ought not pick winners and losers.
I’m guessing that it’s considered a strategically important business to US defence? The US government would presumably be unwilling to allow all those teams of specialist engineers and technicians to be disbanded and all the facilities and assets to be sold off as would happen when a normal business fails.
Maybe we shouldn’t outsource tasks that are strategically important to the nation’s defense (assuming for the sake of argument that they are.)
Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
Both Boeing and Airbus have (somewhat credibly) argued the other is getting subsidies already. Would that really change anything? Bombardier draw the short straw as it was smaller and wasn't able to combat the duopoly of Boeing/Airbus. (Embraer, Sukhoi and Irkut are also in the game but more in niche market shares).
> Bombardier draw the short straw as it was smaller and wasn't able to combat the duopoly of Boeing/Airbus. It was able to compete though on the merit of its products before the duties came into play. The duties were designed to kill its momentum and it did -- look at the loss of orders in 2017 compared to 2016. But once the issue is resolved, the orders in 2018 are huge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Airbus_…
It was able to compete though on the merit of its products
Merit, and a billion dollar subsidy from the government.
There is clearly government interference on both sides.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bombardier-quebec-deal-1.36...
Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not just the checklist: the experience of MCAS-induced trim runaway is significantly different from that which NG pilots are trained for, to the point where additional training seems necessary. Boeing set up the conditions for an accident by first hiding, and then downplaying, those differences, apparently to avoid additional training being required. I have seen some suggestions that this was also the reason for…
I agree with you, hence the "arguably, this may be a problem" parenthetical. Nevertheless, the provided checklist did work as evidenced by Lion Air 043.
So the checklist worked sometimes, but the question is, could it have been improved if we put aside the issue of whether doing so would make a case for additional training?
It is quite possible that it would have been an adequate checklist when backed up with sufficient training that emphasized the differences between MCAS-induced trim runaway and that which might have been experienced in other variants. Simulator practice of manually trimming might help as well, though there is some doubt whether current simulators can adequately model the difficulties that may be experienced.
Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?
#49How did Boeing make miracles in civilian aircraft? In short, the the civilian engineers were in charge. And it fell apart because the company, due to a merger, killed its engineering-first culture Uhm, this makes me think about the engineering-first of Google. I wonder if Google will end in the same path...
IF?! When is the last time you performed a Google search? The real non-paid results aren’t even above the fold.
Are u refering just to ads or can you actually pay to get higher rank directly?
Re: The Coming Boeing Bailout?
#50Not a viewpoint I agree with.
Boeing has plenty of business. 737 MAX sales may suffer, but that will not kill the Boeing Company.
Aviation is a deadly serious business. Design is done by people, which are highly flawed cogs in the system. The system was broken. (meaning design, verification, and certification process). The system can be fixed.
Incompetence at some levels; perhaps. Not murder and not criminal behavior.
Given a crew that has experienced an AOA sensor failure during MCAS operation in the simulator, I would fly on a 737 MAX as it was delivered. Without concern.