One reason for the high cost of housing in California is overregulation • Hacker News Board

Re: One reason for the high cost of housing in California is overregulation

#61

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 11:52 PM UTC

realityman wrote: post #60

leguminous wrote: post #43

The article references energy efficiency regulations specifically. Is the energy code in California significantly stricter than the IECC? There are nice aspects of energy codes. For one thing, potential renters and buyers have little insight into how efficient a house or apartment really is. Since landlords and builders aren't paying the utility bills they are incentivized to reduce upfront construction costs at the…

California requires solar power on every new house. It's a huge cost. Most local governments also require off-street parking, which is a huge cost. The regulatory burden isn't just in planning and permitting.

> California requires solar power on every new house.

No, it doesn't, though it will soon.

> It's a huge cost.

The estimates of $10-30k are under (to far under) 5% of the median home price (for all sales, not just new homes, which would drive the median much higher). It's obviously not a significant current cost driver, and it also won't be a big cost driver when the mandate actually applies next year.

Re: One reason for the high cost of housing in California is overregulation

#62

Post by lacker » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 12:09 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #61

realityman wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California requires solar power on every new house. It's a huge cost. Most local governments also require off-street parking, which is a huge cost. The regulatory burden isn't just in planning and permitting.

> California requires solar power on every new house. No, it doesn't, though it will soon. > It's a huge cost. The estimates of $10-30k are under (to far under) 5% of the median home price (for all sales, not just new homes, which would drive the median much higher). It's obviously not a significant current cost driver, and it also won't be a big cost driver when the mandate actually applies next year.

Mandatory solar panels might be a small fraction of housing costs but the cost of regulations isn’t from one big regulation. It’s from adding regulations over and over until the cost is twice what it needs to be.

$30,000 here, $30,000 there, pretty soon you’re talking real money.

Re: One reason for the high cost of housing in California is overregulation

#63

Post by Fjolsvith » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 12:15 AM UTC

gumby wrote: post #52

wahern wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article mentions that Rhode Island did that wholesale: "The Democratic-dominated Rhode Island government recently eliminated more than 30% of its rule volume by setting an expiration date for its entire regulatory code, forcing state agencies to start fresh."

I just learned that they did that to their state constitution as well a few years ago!

That's handy for frequent regime change!

Re: One reason for the high cost of housing in California is overregulation

#64

Post by Fjolsvith » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 12:22 AM UTC

tomohawk wrote: post #2

"If it moves, tax it. If it keeps on moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it." - Ronald Reagan Looks like we're well along that curve for housing in CA.

Full quote by Ronald Reagan: "Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it."

Re: One reason for the high cost of housing in California is overregulation

#65

Post by RickJWagner » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 1:00 AM UTC

true_tuna wrote: post #32

voldacar wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the most important issue in modern governance that nobody ever talks about is the tendency for the number of laws and the size of the legal code to monotonically grow towards infinity

I’ve heard of the idea of baking expiation into any given law. Useful laws get renewed, useless ones get expunged.

That sounds dangerous to me. If the lawmakers overlook an important one (say, the law against deadly assault) for even a few days, it could be bad.

Re: One reason for the high cost of housing in California is overregulation

#66

Post by spermboy » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 1:12 AM UTC

The ceo of Zillow did an interview with npr and he said the reason prices are high is because the recession caused new construction to stop for a while which resulted in a shortage. A shortage combined with very high wages would result in what we see now. Admittedly, regulation has probably exacerbated the problem by making it more difficult to build, but that didn’t matter until we were behind. I would definitely believe him before any of the armchair real estate experts in these comments I must say.

Re: One reason for the high cost of housing in California is overregulation

#67

Post by wahern » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 1:31 AM UTC

Fjolsvith wrote: post #63

gumby wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just learned that they did that to their state constitution as well a few years ago!

That's handy for frequent regime change!

Ah, good point. If you believe a particular regulation is useful and necessary now, why wouldn't you also believe it would be so in the future? You may not be in power to conditionally renew it. And from a pragmatic political perspective, sunsetting smells like compromise; the political base and interest groups generally frown on compromise. All of which may explain why sunsetting isn't as common as one would think, even if most legislators share the sentiments expressed in this thread (and I would presume that they do).

Re: One reason for the high cost of housing in California is overregulation

#68

Post by bsder » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 1:43 AM UTC

tomohawk wrote: post #2

"If it moves, tax it. If it keeps on moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it." - Ronald Reagan Looks like we're well along that curve for housing in CA.

California's problem is that with Prop 13 they CAN'T tax it.

A lot of this NIMBY stuff would vaporize if you simply allowed the tax and assessments to rise appropriately.

People wouldn't be quite so interested in "my housing value must always rise" if it meant that they couldn't pay their tax anymore.

Re: One reason for the high cost of housing in California is overregulation

#69

Post by cardiffspaceman » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 1:57 AM UTC

Within my neighborhood in California, there has been a steady pace of remodels which go through a vacant lot phase, rather than just adding on and renovating. How are such projects economic if regulations are having costly effects? I had to remove and replace a wall and also restucco the remaining walls. With the restuccoing, it was opportune to replace the windows. All this stuff had to comply with the latest codes rather than the code from the time the house was originally built. So it seems to me that the tear-downs have to comply with even more regulations so they would cost the same as any green-field house construction, without the benefits of scale.

Re: One reason for the high cost of housing in California is overregulation

#70

Post by wahern » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 2:15 AM UTC

gumby wrote: post #51

true_tuna wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard of the idea of baking expiation into any given law. Useful laws get renewed, useless ones get expunged.

It's historically been hard to do because there's a tendency to just automatically extend the sunsets when they arrive. Though a couple of other replies to your comment have a couple of nice examples.

Apparently beginning in the 1970s there was a nationwide movement to sunset state agencies. A choice quote from a Texas legislator in 1994:

> [I] never saw so many alligator shoes and $600 suits as when some agency is up for sunset review.

Source: https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Is+the+sun+setting+on+the+Tex...

That suggests a more general downside from sunsetting--it increases opportunities for lobbying. Worse, it benefits long-term preparation and strategy, which will favor monied interest groups and lobbyists especially. Which is similar to the downsides of term limits, which effectively shifts power to those behind the scenes--e.g. political operators, party bosses--rather than to the electorate. If you make serving in an office a literal revolving door, you empower those positioned to line people up at the door. Likewise, if you make lawmaking a process of continually rehashing old compromises, you empower those playing the long game.