Ask HN: Why are modern music players so bad at playing music in random order? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why are modern music players so bad at playing music in random order?

#131

Post by vsnf » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 11:10 PM UTC

Zarath wrote: post #123

Spotify is the worst offender for me. Random won't play any song outside of the top 100-200 in my song library, but depending on how it is sorted. So if it is sorted from A-Z, I will hear only songs that start with A or B. If it is sorted by date added, I will only hear songs recently added.

This sounds like it could be the well-known bug with Spotify Connect, where only the first 100 songs in any given playback context are submitted to the queue[1].

This particular bug has been around since at least 2016.

[1] https://community.spotify.com/t5/Other-Partners-Web-Player-e...

Re: Ask HN: Why are modern music players so bad at playing music in random order?

#132

Post by qpiox » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 11:22 PM UTC

Every single person can have multiple definitions on what random means in different situations (use-cases).

My hypothesis is that people use the random or shuffle options when they don't know exactly what do they want to listen to, they have a nice collection (or have access to a huge database), and want to be surprised on what follows.

So, a truly random progression is never what you truly want! Instead you want a good DJ, that will suprise you and keep the mood going.

Imaging the opposite. A truly randomized playlist out of a list of 100000 songs. Who would want a truly randomized progression? Imagine listening to Beethovens 6th part II, then Sepultura, then Dua Lipa, then Juzni Vetar, and then only after 20000 other songs forced upon you with no context, you will get to the 6th part III.

So, don't ask for true random. Ask for an option that will give you a nice progression, keep the tempo, keep the mood, ask you if it is good (or measure it somehow). Yes, you want to hear the oldies/goldies, but not only those, otherwise it will get boring, yes you also want to be educated, to hear some good songs that you have not heard about in the past, ... just some of the possibilities.

Playlists are a hot topic in the field of recommender systems these days, and personalized playlists, playlists adapted to your mood and liking and your swings in mood from time to time, are the real future in modern players.

Last years ACM Recommenders systems conference had an competition in exactly that - the challenge of automatic playlist continuation. See this link for more details including the publications that presented some of the results of the challenge. http://www.recsyschallenge.com/2018

Re: Ask HN: Why are modern music players so bad at playing music in random order?

#133

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 11:26 PM UTC

patmcc wrote: post #15

Here's the problem: go ahead and ask a bunch of different people what they want/expect their shuffle/random button to do and you'll get a bunch of different answers. 1. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, with replacement (same song twice in a row is possible). 2. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, without replacement (each song is removed from the list once played). 3. I want it to "seem" random (…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why are modern music players so bad at playing music in random order?

#134

Post by hnick » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 11:35 PM UTC

patmcc wrote: post #15

Here's the problem: go ahead and ask a bunch of different people what they want/expect their shuffle/random button to do and you'll get a bunch of different answers. 1. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, with replacement (same song twice in a row is possible). 2. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, without replacement (each song is removed from the list once played). 3. I want it to "seem" random (…

In the 90s this would have been solved with a single radio button option in the settings menu.

We've come so far with UI design now that we can't have that.

Re: Ask HN: Why are modern music players so bad at playing music in random order?

#135

Post by winternett » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 11:45 PM UTC

patmcc wrote: post #15

Here's the problem: go ahead and ask a bunch of different people what they want/expect their shuffle/random button to do and you'll get a bunch of different answers. 1. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, with replacement (same song twice in a row is possible). 2. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, without replacement (each song is removed from the list once played). 3. I want it to "seem" random (…

They should probably just revive winamp. Winamp really kicked the llama's a$$, and knew what random meant... And also knew how to have a good UI.

Re: Ask HN: Why are modern music players so bad at playing music in random order?

#136

Post by winternett » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 11:52 PM UTC

jancsika wrote: post #127

patmcc wrote: post #15

Here's the problem: go ahead and ask a bunch of different people what they want/expect their shuffle/random button to do and you'll get a bunch of different answers. 1. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, with replacement (same song twice in a row is possible). 2. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, without replacement (each song is removed from the list once played). 3. I want it to "seem" random (…

> 1. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, with replacement (same song twice in a row is possible). Anyone outside of HN would interpret that as broken random. So we can throw it out. > 2. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, without replacement (each song is removed from the list once played). Nope, not good enough for non-specialist randomness. > 3. I want it to "seem" random (don't play too many son…

Or if the UI allowed me to easily play music based on which folders tunes are in, it would solve most of my problems... I already have my mp3s organized by genre in folders, and updates are easier to manage that way, and then random play can match my mood better, instead of going from wu-tang to Celine Dion (I also keep wedding music in my collection just in case...)

Re: Ask HN: Why are modern music players so bad at playing music in random order?

#137

Post by winternett » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 11:56 PM UTC

larrik wrote: post #20

patmcc wrote: post #15

Here's the problem: go ahead and ask a bunch of different people what they want/expect their shuffle/random button to do and you'll get a bunch of different answers. 1. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, with replacement (same song twice in a row is possible). 2. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, without replacement (each song is removed from the list once played). 3. I want it to "seem" random (…

I would say what people usually want is "I want my playlist shuffled in a way that feels like variety". But, I don't have any data to back that up ;)

Most music player developers assume our music collections are small I guess, and they're trying to encourage cloud storage rather than local saved files as well possibly, because it generates money by encouraging music sales, storage upgrades, and monthly subscriptions.

Re: Ask HN: Why are modern music players so bad at playing music in random order?

#138

Post by bromuro » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 12:35 AM UTC

patmcc wrote: post #15

Here's the problem: go ahead and ask a bunch of different people what they want/expect their shuffle/random button to do and you'll get a bunch of different answers. 1. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, with replacement (same song twice in a row is possible). 2. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, without replacement (each song is removed from the list once played). 3. I want it to "seem" random (…

Nice written! I have nothing to complain about Spotify. I also like to think they choose the next songs based on the sound of the last ones. Eg no heavy music after a yoga relaxing soundtrack.

Maybe it is not the way i’d order my playlist, but I trust Spotify knows their stuff. There must be a lot of engineering there.

Why not trusting the musical tastes of a robot, after all?

Re: Ask HN: Why are modern music players so bad at playing music in random order?

#139

Post by bromuro » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 12:42 AM UTC

Fellshard wrote: post #37

patmcc wrote: post #15

Here's the problem: go ahead and ask a bunch of different people what they want/expect their shuffle/random button to do and you'll get a bunch of different answers. 1. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, with replacement (same song twice in a row is possible). 2. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, without replacement (each song is removed from the list once played). 3. I want it to "seem" random (…

Also, "I want 'random' songs that are musically appealing to hear in sequence." A sort of lite DJ logic, really; not necessarily modifying the songs' entrances and exits, but more selecting keys and tempos.

It must be the same algorithm they use to propose new tracks, eg when we play “similar artists”.

“What is the best to listen after this track?” - just with a super small subset of tracks.

Re: Ask HN: Why are modern music players so bad at playing music in random order?

#140

Post by c3534l » Thu, Jul 04, 2019, 12:53 AM UTC

bromuro wrote: post #138

patmcc wrote: post #15

Here's the problem: go ahead and ask a bunch of different people what they want/expect their shuffle/random button to do and you'll get a bunch of different answers. 1. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, with replacement (same song twice in a row is possible). 2. I want it to play in a truly random fashion, without replacement (each song is removed from the list once played). 3. I want it to "seem" random (…

Nice written! I have nothing to complain about Spotify. I also like to think they choose the next songs based on the sound of the last ones. Eg no heavy music after a yoga relaxing soundtrack. Maybe it is not the way i’d order my playlist, but I trust Spotify knows their stuff. There must be a lot of engineering there. Why not trusting the musical tastes of a robot, after all?

> I have nothing to complain about Spotify.

I do. 1 and 2 aren't even options. I have playlists with 100 or so songs in it. I don't hate that I can predict what the next song will be. Smart Shuffle is fine, so long as you don't say it's random and you offer an actual shuffle button that works the way shuffle has worked since the introduction of the CD player.