The case against plant consciousness • Hacker News Board

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#61

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 8:59 PM UTC

anon_z88 wrote: post #20

While I agree with his reasoning based on his definition of consciousness, I am not sure if this is the most appropriate way of defining consciousness. We still do not properly understand it, thus we cannot define it. While I try to stray from vague or ambiguous interpretations, I do think it's significant to point that out. Let's look at the generic definition: * consciousness - "the state of being awake and aware o…

> At the most abstract interpretation I think consciousness can be defined as a closed system that contain both input and output, in which information is gathered and alters some component of the system itself.

This seems like a reductio ad absurdum definition of consciousness, to echo rotrux's "By this definition my air conditioning system is conscious" comment.

Consciousness may be hard to define, but it certainly is something that at least appears "special", and I think it's a big mistake to not include at least some level of self-awareness in the definition.

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#62

Post by mikeg8 » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 9:01 PM UTC

TTPrograms wrote: post #57

mikeg8 wrote: post #48

In The Hidden Life of Trees , one cool fact that stuck with me in support of tree consciousness was how trees that are under attack from certain insect species will release pheromones to warn neighboring trees. The neighboring trees will then rapidly increase production of tanins and other defense chemicals to stave of the insect onslaught. pretty cool

That sort of behavior would be expected for even trivial organisms according to kin selection, though.

My brief Wikipedia look-up on kin selection makes it seem like it is an evolutionary strategy exclusive to animals. Do you have examples of non animal species or "trivial organisms" that have used this strategy?

Edit: just saw a small snippet on plants down the page but if anything, i think kin selection in and of itself is supporting of consciousness. I have a hard time imaging non-conscious subjects exhibiting kin selection.

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#63

Post by uj8efdjkfdshf » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 9:03 PM UTC

rotrux wrote: post #27

anon_z88 wrote: post #20

While I agree with his reasoning based on his definition of consciousness, I am not sure if this is the most appropriate way of defining consciousness. We still do not properly understand it, thus we cannot define it. While I try to stray from vague or ambiguous interpretations, I do think it's significant to point that out. Let's look at the generic definition: * consciousness - "the state of being awake and aware o…

By this definition my air conditioning system is conscious.

I'd personally back such a definition of consciousness, and reframe the question more as one of what level of consciousness (eg complexity of processing, breadth of collected inputs) must an entity possess before we consider its consciousness as being meaningful to us.

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#64

Post by ta1234567890 » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 9:05 PM UTC

anon_z88 wrote: post #20

While I agree with his reasoning based on his definition of consciousness, I am not sure if this is the most appropriate way of defining consciousness. We still do not properly understand it, thus we cannot define it. While I try to stray from vague or ambiguous interpretations, I do think it's significant to point that out. Let's look at the generic definition: * consciousness - "the state of being awake and aware o…

Completely agree that it's very hard to have conversations about implications of consciousness without first having a definition that we can all agree on.

In that line, what do you define as a "closed system"? Technically, nothing exists that doesn't somehow interact with its surroundings. Including humans (we breath, eat, absorb/exchange heat from air/sun, etc). Also black holes (Hawking radiation).

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#65

Post by justwalt » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 9:06 PM UTC

daveFNbuck wrote: post #30

anon_z88 wrote: post #20

While I agree with his reasoning based on his definition of consciousness, I am not sure if this is the most appropriate way of defining consciousness. We still do not properly understand it, thus we cannot define it. While I try to stray from vague or ambiguous interpretations, I do think it's significant to point that out. Let's look at the generic definition: * consciousness - "the state of being awake and aware o…

> At the most abstract interpretation I think consciousness can be defined as a closed system that contain both input and output, in which information is gathered and alters some component of the system itself. This is very similar to the definition I was given for "robot" in an embedded systems course.

I think this is the point that the poster is trying to make. They’re saying it’s difficult to declare something conscious or not using exact criteria.

A popular definition (in my experience) is the existence of a central nervous system, but we don’t really know whether or not that’s responsible for consciousness. I wonder if we’ll ever know for sure.

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#66

Post by ta1234567890 » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 9:10 PM UTC

uj8efdjkfdshf wrote: post #63

rotrux wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By this definition my air conditioning system is conscious.

I'd personally back such a definition of consciousness, and reframe the question more as one of what level of consciousness (eg complexity of processing, breadth of collected inputs) must an entity possess before we consider its consciousness as being meaningful to us.

Love this way of framing the subject.

Following that line of reasoning, you could say that even the smallest particle/bit of energy has some level of consciousness.

Then you could also say that Earth (and any planet or star), is also conscious, and at a way higher level than we (humans) are.

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#67

Post by tasty_freeze » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 9:14 PM UTC

mikeg8 wrote: post #62

TTPrograms wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sort of behavior would be expected for even trivial organisms according to kin selection, though.

My brief Wikipedia look-up on kin selection makes it seem like it is an evolutionary strategy exclusive to animals. Do you have examples of non animal species or "trivial organisms" that have used this strategy? Edit: just saw a small snippet on plants down the page but if anything, i think kin selection in and of itself is supporting of consciousness. I have a hard time imaging non-conscious subjects exhibiting kin…

> i think kin selection in and of itself is supporting of consciousness

Why would you think that? Evolution operates on a population via shaping the distribution of traits via selection. The selection is being done by the environment, not the population, and requires no conscious entity.

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#68

Post by anon_z88 » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 9:15 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #61

anon_z88 wrote: post #20

While I agree with his reasoning based on his definition of consciousness, I am not sure if this is the most appropriate way of defining consciousness. We still do not properly understand it, thus we cannot define it. While I try to stray from vague or ambiguous interpretations, I do think it's significant to point that out. Let's look at the generic definition: * consciousness - "the state of being awake and aware o…

> At the most abstract interpretation I think consciousness can be defined as a closed system that contain both input and output, in which information is gathered and alters some component of the system itself. This seems like a reductio ad absurdum definition of consciousness, to echo rotrux's "By this definition my air conditioning system is conscious" comment. Consciousness may be hard to define, but it certainly…

I reduced it to a minimum so we could find points that we can agree on. I think self-awareness is a more complex system of consciousness, such as sentience. Which I do not believe an air conditioner is.

For example, is nature (evolution) conscious?

I mean this in the most literal sense, the system which created your definition of "consciousness", is that system itself consciousness?

The material that makes up our neurons once came from a non self-aware system. (basic minerals, etc.)

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#69

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 9:15 PM UTC

rotrux wrote: post #27

anon_z88 wrote: post #20

While I agree with his reasoning based on his definition of consciousness, I am not sure if this is the most appropriate way of defining consciousness. We still do not properly understand it, thus we cannot define it. While I try to stray from vague or ambiguous interpretations, I do think it's significant to point that out. Let's look at the generic definition: * consciousness - "the state of being awake and aware o…

By this definition my air conditioning system is conscious.

[deleted]

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#70

Post by anon_z88 » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 9:16 PM UTC

ta1234567890 wrote: post #64

anon_z88 wrote: post #20

While I agree with his reasoning based on his definition of consciousness, I am not sure if this is the most appropriate way of defining consciousness. We still do not properly understand it, thus we cannot define it. While I try to stray from vague or ambiguous interpretations, I do think it's significant to point that out. Let's look at the generic definition: * consciousness - "the state of being awake and aware o…

Completely agree that it's very hard to have conversations about implications of consciousness without first having a definition that we can all agree on. In that line, what do you define as a "closed system"? Technically, nothing exists that doesn't somehow interact with its surroundings. Including humans (we breath, eat, absorb/exchange heat from air/sun, etc). Also black holes (Hawking radiation).

By closed system, I mean anything which you can isolate from anything else.

For example, a car and a truck are both vehicles, but a vehicle is neither a car or a truck.

The truck or car are the subject/closed system.