The case against plant consciousness • Hacker News Board

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#51

Post by blancheneige » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 8:47 PM UTC

pixelbash wrote: post #44

blancheneige wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the exceptional claim that human consciousness resides in the brain despite documented evidence of remote viewing [1], terminal lucidity [2], memories of past lives [3], etc.? Maybe it's time these "scientists" start doing actual science instead of sticking to their ultra-materialist dogma. [1] https://fas.org/irp/program/collect/air1995.pdf [2] https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploa... [3]…

Without leaning one way or the other I've always wondered what neuroimaging one of these experiences would look like. If nothing obvious is happening and the imagee reports a rich and detailed experience it might be persuasive.

Indeed. Severe cases of hydrocephalus [1], for example, where an otherwise functional individual is missing large portions of their brain may provide partial answers.

[1] https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploa...

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#52

Post by sebringj » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 8:48 PM UTC

rotrux wrote: post #27

anon_z88 wrote: post #20

While I agree with his reasoning based on his definition of consciousness, I am not sure if this is the most appropriate way of defining consciousness. We still do not properly understand it, thus we cannot define it. While I try to stray from vague or ambiguous interpretations, I do think it's significant to point that out. Let's look at the generic definition: * consciousness - "the state of being awake and aware o…

By this definition my air conditioning system is conscious.

Exactly. People do this all the time. They project their own experience onto something without taking the time to think if that even applies. Our brain has billions of neurons and trillions of axons, so many that it allows a platform of emergence, not magic. Plants having nothing like this.

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#53

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 8:51 PM UTC

mikeg8 wrote: post #48

In The Hidden Life of Trees , one cool fact that stuck with me in support of tree consciousness was how trees that are under attack from certain insect species will release pheromones to warn neighboring trees. The neighboring trees will then rapidly increase production of tanins and other defense chemicals to stave of the insect onslaught. pretty cool

[deleted]

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#54

Post by pedro1976 » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 8:53 PM UTC

mikeg8 wrote: post #48

In The Hidden Life of Trees , one cool fact that stuck with me in support of tree consciousness was how trees that are under attack from certain insect species will release pheromones to warn neighboring trees. The neighboring trees will then rapidly increase production of tanins and other defense chemicals to stave of the insect onslaught. pretty cool

One could conclude that they have a sense for their community, an us-feelimg. Interesting...

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#55

Post by sova » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 8:53 PM UTC

Fungal networks act as a communication web. All plants are part fungi. The layer of mycelium in the dirt is both a digestive tract and a lung. We carry our stomachs, intestines, and lungs in sacks called bodies as we walk around, fungi are laid down instead. Fascinatingly, mycelium break down rocks and create soil from stone. Fungal networks will also allow inter-plant communication for insect-warding chemicals to be released, and also fungi will decomposition logs which provide bees with vital Cytochrome P450 action that cleanses their system of virii.

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#56

Post by JetSpiegel » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 8:54 PM UTC

mikeg8 wrote: post #42

rotrux wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By this definition my air conditioning system is conscious.

I don't think so. Being turned on/powered up is not equivalent to being awake. "Awake", at minimum, implies a living subject.

That is just kicking the definition can down the "living" road.

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#57

Post by TTPrograms » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 8:55 PM UTC

mikeg8 wrote: post #48

In The Hidden Life of Trees , one cool fact that stuck with me in support of tree consciousness was how trees that are under attack from certain insect species will release pheromones to warn neighboring trees. The neighboring trees will then rapidly increase production of tanins and other defense chemicals to stave of the insect onslaught. pretty cool

That sort of behavior would be expected for even trivial organisms according to kin selection, though.

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#58

Post by ex3xu » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 8:55 PM UTC

For a layman's introduction to the case for plant consciousness, Monica Gagliano and her plant consciousness experiments were featured on Radiolab last year (transcript available): https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/plant-parade

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#59

Post by panic » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 8:56 PM UTC

rotrux wrote: post #27

anon_z88 wrote: post #20

While I agree with his reasoning based on his definition of consciousness, I am not sure if this is the most appropriate way of defining consciousness. We still do not properly understand it, thus we cannot define it. While I try to stray from vague or ambiguous interpretations, I do think it's significant to point that out. Let's look at the generic definition: * consciousness - "the state of being awake and aware o…

By this definition my air conditioning system is conscious.

How do you know that it isn't?

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#60

Post by dade_ » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 8:56 PM UTC

dbt00 wrote: post #18

plutonorm wrote: post #2

This just sounds like a member of the old guard being uncomfortable with progress. His arguments dont seem very strong, questions over why plants would have such a capacity. Then some hand waving about alternative explanations for experimental results. Probably just another case of the dismantling of human exceptionalism making people uncomfortable.

Or perhaps exceptional claims (plants have brains we just can’t see them) require exceptional evidence.

Not so exceptional, the centriole is essentially the eye and brain of a cell. If cells are able to leverage quantum mechanics like our retina, chlorophyll, bird magnetoreception, and olfaction, then why not for memory or computation? Essentially neurons aren't a simple switch, but rather contain a processor & memory in themselves.