The case against plant consciousness • Hacker News Board

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#11

Post by kingbirdy » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 7:27 PM UTC

bin0 wrote: post #4

So here's an interesting question: if plants are conscious, can vegans eat them? And if not, what will they eat? Not trying to troll vegans; if this is different and some one can enlighten me, I'd appreciate it.

It would depend on why people are vegan as to whether they would be okay with eating conscious plants. They could adopt an even stricter diet such as Fruitarianism[0]. I'm not sure if it's currently feasible to adopt a diet of exclusively lab grown food, but that could be an option down the line. They could also become Level 5 Vegans [1] ;)

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruitarianism

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_Yaa_LMDcs

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#12

Post by MisterOctober » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 7:29 PM UTC

krisrm wrote: post #5

bin0 wrote: post #4

So here's an interesting question: if plants are conscious, can vegans eat them? And if not, what will they eat? Not trying to troll vegans; if this is different and some one can enlighten me, I'd appreciate it.

I'm not a vegan, but if you think of veganism as more of a "harm reduction" approach to eating, it doesn't matter whether you define plants to be conscious or not. As in, it causes relatively more harm to a large number of organisms to eat an animal as food (the animals are presumably going to eat plants anyway), versus cutting out the middle man and just eating plants.

Vegan here -- naturally, there are as many philosophical approaches to vegan practice as there are vegans, but for me and others I know, it definitely is oriented toward 'harm-reduction' [or as I like to say, minimizing exploitation].

It's impossible to live and thrive without being detrimental to other organisms - for me, the idea is to accept the inevitable cycle of struggle and violence, while minimizing the _exploitative treatment_ of other beings [plant or animal -- easier said than done with regard to plants -- one easy step is to include as much fruit and perennial leaf matter in the diet as practical [i.e., the plant is treated more like something to be nurtured rather than merely 'grown and discarded']

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#13

Post by krisrm » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

bin0 wrote: post #8

krisrm wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a vegan, but if you think of veganism as more of a "harm reduction" approach to eating, it doesn't matter whether you define plants to be conscious or not. As in, it causes relatively more harm to a large number of organisms to eat an animal as food (the animals are presumably going to eat plants anyway), versus cutting out the middle man and just eating plants.

Fair enough. I guess not all vegans will be homogeneous here either; I'm assuming some are in it for harm reduction, some for ecology, some for the "animals cute" factor. Oh well. I appreciate the insight.

Certainly! And yeah - I'm sure there's a whole range of perspectives. Probably the idea that plants might be defined as "conscious" bothers some people, but I just can't understand that frame of mind. What are you going to do about it... starve?

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#14

Post by MisterOctober » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 7:35 PM UTC

plutonorm wrote: post #2

This just sounds like a member of the old guard being uncomfortable with progress. His arguments dont seem very strong, questions over why plants would have such a capacity. Then some hand waving about alternative explanations for experimental results. Probably just another case of the dismantling of human exceptionalism making people uncomfortable.

Yep -- I remember reading a review of "Plant-Thinking" around the time it was published that said something like "The critics who deride [the notion of plant-consciousness as expressed in the book] do so in language that demonstrates exactly the hierarchical, essentialist attitudes that the book looks to expose and dismantle"

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#15

Post by vfc1 » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 7:35 PM UTC

bin0 wrote: post #4

So here's an interesting question: if plants are conscious, can vegans eat them? And if not, what will they eat? Not trying to troll vegans; if this is different and some one can enlighten me, I'd appreciate it.

Plant conscience and plant lives matter arguments are usually used as a futility fallacy argument against the reduction of animal products consumption.

Something like: See, even plants are conscious, there is no point so let's just continue eating steaks and pork chops every day.

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#16

Post by haberman » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

plutonorm wrote: post #2

This just sounds like a member of the old guard being uncomfortable with progress. His arguments dont seem very strong, questions over why plants would have such a capacity. Then some hand waving about alternative explanations for experimental results. Probably just another case of the dismantling of human exceptionalism making people uncomfortable.

If his arguments are weak, it should not be necessary to buttress counterarguments with speculation about his motives.

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#17

Post by viklove » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 7:40 PM UTC

krisrm wrote: post #13

bin0 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. I guess not all vegans will be homogeneous here either; I'm assuming some are in it for harm reduction, some for ecology, some for the "animals cute" factor. Oh well. I appreciate the insight.

Certainly! And yeah - I'm sure there's a whole range of perspectives. Probably the idea that plants might be defined as "conscious" bothers some people, but I just can't understand that frame of mind. What are you going to do about it... starve?

I think the point is that the line between animals and plants would become arbitrary if plants were indeed conscious and could feel pain. Why eat plants but not animals then?

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#18

Post by dbt00 » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

plutonorm wrote: post #2

This just sounds like a member of the old guard being uncomfortable with progress. His arguments dont seem very strong, questions over why plants would have such a capacity. Then some hand waving about alternative explanations for experimental results. Probably just another case of the dismantling of human exceptionalism making people uncomfortable.

Or perhaps exceptional claims (plants have brains we just can’t see them) require exceptional evidence.

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#19

Post by ianai » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 7:43 PM UTC

MisterOctober wrote: post #12

krisrm wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a vegan, but if you think of veganism as more of a "harm reduction" approach to eating, it doesn't matter whether you define plants to be conscious or not. As in, it causes relatively more harm to a large number of organisms to eat an animal as food (the animals are presumably going to eat plants anyway), versus cutting out the middle man and just eating plants.

Vegan here -- naturally, there are as many philosophical approaches to vegan practice as there are vegans, but for me and others I know, it definitely is oriented toward 'harm-reduction' [or as I like to say, minimizing exploitation]. It's impossible to live and thrive without being detrimental to other organisms - for me, the idea is to accept the inevitable cycle of struggle and violence, while minimizing the _expl…

I went vegan initially after comparing the harmful effects of animal products with the relative ease of eating something else. Subjectively, I feel much healthier eating plant based, Whole foods. I have noticed beneficial effects as well-lost weight, for instance. Though I do perceive eating plants as more moral than animal products, as well. It seems like plants don’t experience treatment like animals do, just as a general.

Re: The case against plant consciousness

#20

Post by anon_z88 » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 7:46 PM UTC

While I agree with his reasoning based on his definition of consciousness, I am not sure if this is the most appropriate way of defining consciousness.

We still do not properly understand it, thus we cannot define it. While I try to stray from vague or ambiguous interpretations, I do think it's significant to point that out.

Let's look at the generic definition: * consciousness - "the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings." * awareness - "knowledge or perception of a situation or fact."

While a plants' consciousness may not be COMPLEX, it does not mean the absence of conscious. There are things such as cellular intelligence which we know is exhibited in even the smallest of prokaryotes and eukaryotes cells.

At the most abstract interpretation I think consciousness can be defined as a closed system that contain both input and output, in which information is gathered and alters some component of the system itself.

There was a really interesting article the other day on here about how plants were more adaptive to radiation (specifically in Chernobyl) compared to the regions animal counterparts.

To this definition, I think plants exercise consciousness. When we look at life we have to analyze on both the fundamental and complex aspects.

Just my 2 cents.